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#Post#: 19640--------------------------------------------------
Christopher Columbus
By: Beverly Date: October 13, 2024, 8:17 am
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Read this Reuters article this morning about a DNA study on
Christopher Columbus’s remains proving he was a Sephardic Jew
from “Western Europe.”
The oddest thing about the conclusion of the study is the
general placement of his origins as “Western Europe” instead of
Spain.
Looking forward to Greg’s return and input on this one.
HTML http://Columbus was a Sephardic Jew from Western Europe, study
finds -
HTML https://www.reuters.com/science/columbus-was-sephardic-jew-western-europe-study-finds-2024-10-13/
HTML http://Columbus was a Sephardic Jew from Western Europe, study
finds -
HTML https://www.reuters.com/science/columbus-was-sephardic-jew-western-europe-study-finds-2024-10-13/
#Post#: 19642--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Lyn Date: October 13, 2024, 10:19 am
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The Sephardim travelled and could be found all over the world,
as did Ashkenazi. Columbus certainly did that :-). He was
Italian so having some Sephardic ethnicity fits but he was a
Christian.
I have some Jewish in me, great-great grandparents on one side I
think, they came to Britain from France. After that it was well
diluted. I also have Scottish and Irish.
We all have different bits and pieces in our dna, or most of us
do anyway, no big deal.
This was on the BBC website, probably says much the same as the
link Bev posted:
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg2049ezpko
Honestly, apart from dna, so much speculation, these people
obviously have little to do.
St George next, please, if there are any remains; all we think
we know about him is that he was a soldier from what is now
Turkey.
.......
Since posting the above, I put the radio on - LBC. The
discussion is about Christopher Columbus! People phoning in are
mainly American, one Italian so far. They are quite 'anti' so
much being made of this man, was he a hero or a villain, etc.
Honestly, apart from learning about Columbus at school (as well
as Magellan and Vasco da Gama), I doubt many British give him
much thought. The Vikings most likely travelled to the Americas
500 years before him.
However I have read up a bit more about Columbus this morning,
to refresh my memory. Apparently 'Christopher Columbus Day' is
celebrated in the USA, Spain and Italy, as if he is some sort of
icon. When I hear his name I think of Josephine March, from
'Little Women', using 'Christopher Columbus!' as an expletive. I
would like to see a dramatised documentary about him, will
google to see what there is. The BBC 'Discovery'
programme/series about him is no longer available on iplayer but
looks as though there are things on Youtube. My appetite is
whetted.
Today is also apparently 'Battle of Hastings Day'. No doubt the
right wing, xenophobic groups on facebook will be full of that
:).
#Post#: 19665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Beverly Date: October 14, 2024, 6:38 am
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I thought Sephardi Jews were primarily in Spain, but after
looking into it, they are found elsewhere too.
On Columbus being a “hero or villian,” in the journals of Álvar
Núñez Cabeza de Vaca, he described abuses of natives in the
americas that I just couldn’t reconcile with anything Christian.
Spreading the gospel is one thing. Using natives to dive for
pearls in shark-infested waters is another.
Spain’s primary goal was a search for precious metals and
jewels. And, if de Vaca’s writings are any indication, any
effort to spread the gospel was not worth a mention.
#Post#: 19668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Lyn Date: October 14, 2024, 11:03 am
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I agree with that. One thing I admire about the Catholic church
is they stopped proselytising in the 1960s, I think it was
during the time of Pope John XXlll. Hee hee, did they stop
pontificating? Christian witness from then onwards was meant to
be demonstrated without preaching, respect for other cultures
and integrity of other faiths.
I was at a Catholic school from age 4-11, then away at one from
16-18. The difference in attitude was palpable and quite
refreshing.
Much as I hated the school as a teenager, for many good reasons,
I really enjoyed the discussions we had around religion and
ethics. There was no talk of 'converting the heathen', indeed we
were told that God loves a sincere Hindu as much as He does any
of us; obviously there was a lot more to it than that but I
don't want to go deep on this thread which is primarily about
Columbus.
At my first, 'little', school(where I was very happy), the
missions were all about preaching alongside any practical work
and we regularly prayed for the souls of non-believers. I
wasn't a Catholic but we learned it all and Catholics were not
allowed to set foot in a non-Catholic church, even for a friend
or relative's wedding!
At the end of the sixties, interfaith groups popped up, the
Church was less exclusive and mission was working with, and for
the benefit of, communities. No oneupmanship with regard to
personal belief. Not everyone agreed of course, there was a
vocal minority who stuck to the old teachings, there still is,
but most Catholics embraced the new ethos. Some had always
privately believed that anyway.
It was all very strict and dark in the days of Columbus, he was
no doubt in many ways a man of his time, and he was paid by the
Spanish.
Though most Jews are Ashkenazi, Sephardic Jews are all over the
world, especially in the Iberian peninsula, parts of Africa and
Asia but there are plenty in other countries, including here in
England,in America and, of course, Israel. I knew an Ashkenazi
girl who was married to a Sephardic (neither particularly
observant). A lot perished in the holocaust. Amongst Jews they
are considered to be rather aristocratic.
There are a few Sephardic synagogues here, called something
different depending on specific culture, some built around
particular communities, eg Portugese.
I find all that quite fascinating, always have, which might be
obvious :-).
#Post#: 19691--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Beverly Date: October 16, 2024, 8:05 am
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Looking more into Sephardi Jews, it’s interesting that they are
distinguished both by their distinct Hebrew-Spanish language and
a different liturgy.
According to a wiki article on them, Israel has categorized
Sephardi Jews in a much broader sense, including Ethiopian Jews
who don’t practice their religion in the same way.
This makes me wonder if the conclusion that Columbus was a
Sephardi Jew from Europe is based on Israel’s categorization.
(The Europe thing still bothers me. :D)
#Post#: 19694--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Lyn Date: October 16, 2024, 8:12 am
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Why are you bothered?
Yes, Ethiopian Jews are generally sephardic.
Where there are two Jews there are three opinions! There are so
many denominations (for want of a better word), and
sub-denominations, in Judaism, many culturally influenced.
As an aside, the Eastern Orthodox are a bit different to Greek
and Russian but they are still Orthodox.
That's life.
#Post#: 19715--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Beverly Date: October 17, 2024, 9:14 am
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[quote author=Lyn link=topic=256.msg19694#msg19694
date=1729084376]
Why are you bothered?
[/quote]
Only in an academic sense. I would have liked an explanation as
to why they classified origins as European when the very term
“Sephardi” refers to Iberia.
#Post#: 19723--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Lyn Date: October 17, 2024, 12:06 pm
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Iberia is European, mainly Spain and Portugal. I will look it
up in order to be more precise.
Here:
HTML https://www.britannica.com/place/Iberian-Peninsula
#Post#: 19760--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Beverly Date: October 18, 2024, 5:01 pm
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Yes, Iberia is part of Europe, but why specify Columbus’s roots
as from Europe (which consists of much more than Iberia) instead
of Iberia?
Thinking on it, it may have something to do with DNA not always
being specific to region. I have 1% Native American DNA, which I
know from research is from a Cherokee female ancestor who lived
in North Carolina at the time. But, the DNA results classify it
as “Southeastern US.” So, maybe something like that is going on.
#Post#: 19761--------------------------------------------------
Re: Christopher Columbus
By: Lyn Date: October 19, 2024, 12:12 am
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Bev: "why specify Columbus’s roots as from Europe (which
consists of much more than Iberia) instead of Iberia?"
You've lost me, Bev. You'd have to ask whoever specified that to
uncover the motives and I doubt that is possible :-).
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