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#Post#: 18772--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Gregory Date: August 31, 2024, 1:45 pm
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"Do you believe that countless people who are not religious are
having near death experiences?"
Yes, because research has shown that to be so, with many
agnostics and atheists having them, not to mention those of
non-Christian and non-theist religions.
To return to my original post, what is it that is "seeing" these
things? It can't be the person's eyes, obviously, as their body
is still lying in the hospital bed, so what is it that is
supposedly floating around with the capacity to see and with
what means? And don't tell me it's the person's soul as the
teaching is that it doesn't leave the body until death. It's
also very strange that the experiences always seem to be
confined to the person's ward or a nearby one. Why not in some
place far away they've proved never to have been to? That would
be much more convincing.
#Post#: 18773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Lyn Date: August 31, 2024, 5:04 pm
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A near death experience is a type of dream, anyone could have
one, or more than one, in their lifetime. It has nothing to do
with faith or religious belief but if a person has a faith, or
comes from a background of faith, that information is going to
be stored in their subconscious and unconscious, and will
manifest itself in dreams. I have sometimes dreamed I am on a
journey to Heaven; it's quite interesting and I meet people on
the way who accompany me for some of it. The journey is long
and takes many turnings. It's pleasant. I always wake up before
I get there :-). Presumably if I am very near death I will see
the final destination.
As for spirits floating around, I do not believe in ghosts but I
do believe in the Jewish idea of 'shades'. A personality or a
happening can imprint a shade in a certain place, some people
are sensitive to that. I have felt in in some places, sometimes
very strongly. Three examples are Battle, where the battle of
Hastings took place, the other is Bodmin gaol. Both brought me
in tears. Once in hospital, after I had my appendix out aged
22, I was in a side ward and became aware of a benign presence.
I couldn't see anything, just felt it. Not unpleasant, seemed
natural. I asked one of the staff about it and she said I was
not the only one who had experienced that.
#Post#: 18782--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Gregory Date: September 1, 2024, 2:29 am
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[quote author=Lyn link=topic=242.msg18773#msg18773
date=1725141873]
A near death experience is a type of dream, anyone could have
one, or more than one, in their lifetime. It has nothing to do
with faith or religious belief but if a person has a faith, or
comes from a background of faith, that information is going to
be stored in their subconscious and unconscious, and will
manifest itself in dreams. [/quote]
The problem with this is that we're not talking about dreams
which can occur at any point in a lifetime and differ from
person to person but rather an experience which uniquely occurs
to a person on the verge of clinical death. Also, the experience
is identical. The vast number of those experiencing an NDE,
religious or not, say they passed through a tunnel and saw a
figure of light at its end. It's impossible for so many people
to have exactly the same dream, supposing that is what it is,
with only a culture-determined interpretation of the identity of
the figure of light being different (eg. Jesus, the Buddha, a
deceased loved one, etc.) That it may be a product of the
synapses, etc. of the brain closing down as death approaches, as
many neurologists suggest, is much more feasible and consistent
with the huge numbers of people from different backgrounds,
times and cultures who all have the same experience.
#Post#: 18785--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Lyn Date: September 1, 2024, 3:26 am
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Yes, I get that (and I have not had a NDE or passed through a
tunnel towards a light). However, I still believe a NDE is a
type of dream, something unique to being close to death at which
point, as you say, the brain will function differently.
It's interesting but not something about which I think much.
There have been people on forums like this who have had a NDE,
and omes reported in the media.
There are also those who have (almost) died, been resuscitated,
and had no experience at all!
#Post#: 18786--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Gregory Date: September 1, 2024, 4:32 am
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Alright, that's clearer now, but I think my problem has been the
terminology. I think a dream is distinct from an NDE, although
both are created in the brain, but seemingly in different areas.
From an article:
"Image creation in the brain involves significant neural
activity downstream from eye intake, and it is theorized that
the visual imagery of dreams is produced by activation during
sleep of the same structures that generate complex visual
imagery in waking perception."
To that extent every dream is different from person to person,
depending on the different images created by each person's
brain. Meanwhile, NDE's have basic elements in common among the
countless numbers of people who have experienced them, so are
produced by a different part of the brain. From another article:
"Apparently, studies reveal common areas involved in near-death
experiences that include the occipital cortex, frontal lobes,
hippocampus, basal ganglia, amygdala, and, often, the
temporal/parietal junction. When the brain undergoes decreased
oxygenation, it may react in ways that culminate in a patient’s
near-death experience."
I'm not familiar with the technical jargon there but the
phenomenon seems quite distinct from dreams as that term is
generally understood and with different causation but images in
common. I'm not indulging in quibbling, by the way, just seeing
things in distinct terms. No matter.
I dream a lot, by the way, very realistic, almost film-like, and
mostly quite entertaining. I often regret waking up in the
middle of one!
#Post#: 18795--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Leslie Date: September 1, 2024, 6:38 am
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The brain is a material thing, no matter how complex .I often
asked the question when young "Where do thoughts come from?" (
In today's era it would be" Where do ideas come from?)
"Narrowing all these thoughts and ideas to parts of the brain
using big words does not mean the brain . a material thing
caused ideas and thoughts - Thoughts and ideas are non material
- they exist.
#Post#: 18800--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Gregory Date: September 1, 2024, 6:56 am
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Quite so. As Kant said, "I think, therefore I am" ("Cogito, ergo
sum.")
Just an idea...
#Post#: 18801--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Leslie Date: September 1, 2024, 7:29 am
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Rene Descartes said, Cogito ergo sum. meaning (to him) I think
therefore I am.
To me it should read :I am Therefore I think.
Being a person comes before thinking.
I used to interpret this as "I am therefore I think." This is
not quite correct as there are people walking around who do not
think. Starting with Trudeau !.....
#Post#: 18805--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: Gregory Date: September 1, 2024, 8:34 am
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Oops - got my philosophers in a twist! I kan't be forgiven... :(
#Post#: 18808--------------------------------------------------
Re: Near death experiences
By: gwinnie Date: September 1, 2024, 4:12 pm
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[quote author=Gregory link=topic=242.msg18805#msg18805
date=1725197675]
Oops - got my philosophers in a twist! I kan't be forgiven... :(
[/quote]
You can… we just Dante want to as it was all too Confuciusing!
;-p
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