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#Post#: 18--------------------------------------------------
ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: Flying Dutchman Date: June 3, 2020, 12:08 pm
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Not necessary per se, but I wanted to implement those changes
into a dynamic document, rather than reading in the manual
first, then cross referencing notes.
Also since the frontal attacks were taken out of the game due to
mods, I kind of like the more compact look when the 10/12/1:30
position charts out of it.
Would scan and just edit pdf, but I do like the aesthetic of the
flight manuals, so don't want to damage those to get scan format
to a decent place.
Not planning to do other bombers, unless anyone else finds it of
use, and or likes the mods, or wants to implement more.
On Tue, May 19, 2020, 16:59 bob marley <robocop01@gmx.net>
wrote:
Gents,
As you may know, I received the game 1-2 MONTHS later then in
North America. So only yesterday started my first VANILLA
mission to Berlin, Lanc 43.
Therefore, i cannot yet commend on the MOD yet, hope you
understand.
I already found some glaring ADDITIONAL unadressed inaccuracies
in the game, that can be ironed out later.
(NB.Basics statistics:
1. Once again, the historical kill rate NF-FLAK was roughly 2:1.
2. Average loss rate mid 1942-mid 1944 ROUGHLY 5% all causes,
maybe usable as a baseline?)
The reporting and experimenting of Glenn and Chris with the mod
over multiple missions is needed to calibrate the mod to feel
"right".
Whatever "right" means.
My take on Glenns "killers":
1. Chances air collision RL: 1:1000= 0.1%.
Thats not the 8.3% Glenn calculated for the game. Source: ORS!
facts, facts...
Waaaay exaggerated again.
1st 1000 bomber raid Cologne: 1047 a/c dispatched. Pre-ORS
evaluation collision chance: 1/1000. Actual Collisions: ONE
(well, thats 2 planes involved...)
2. Bomb bay hit to bombs: happened frequently.
Were often observed as "Scarecrows" (google that one). BoCo told
crews (lied?) what they saw was just a german hoax, just a giant
fire works to intimidate the crews.
I have found no statistics on occurance, but for laden plane
sounds plausible as in game...
NF tended to avoid targetting fuselage in VC if bombers were
outbound, preferring aiming for the wings.
3. The fire department. Simple.
They generally went down burning.
Partly still too lenient in game, as many bombers went down with
burning fuselage only, as well.
ORS knew that No.1 loss was fueltank fire, but no fire suppress
system (venting exhaust gases into emptying fuel tanks)
was realized before end of war.
(NB. The head of BoCo ORS simply did not have the weight/balls
to enforce life saving measures such as feultankfire suppresion,
larger escape hatches lanc, removal ALL gunturrets to cut
losses, all in stark contrast to ORS of the Navy)
Fueltank fire, Engine fire, Uncontrolled fuselage fire were
observed in the great majority of cases of all shot down
aircraft.(in that order)
In fact, german NF pilots only let go when aircraft was on fire,
and always tried to flame them, preferably the fuel tanks.
edit: internet strikes upload. another time...
4. Fuel leakage. The flight engineer manages that.
Oversimplyfied in game, with too strong an impact. Any tank
could be switched off, or be used to feed any engine.
Just from the hip, I made a scetch/rule to migitate that. Not
for everyone and certainly improvable.
Question to Dave: why the rewrite of Stirling? (might be
necessary, havent checked yet)
Cheers, Rob.
Gesendet: Dienstag, 19. Mai 2020 um 21:53 Uhr
Von: "David Damrel" <david.damrel@gmail.com>
An: "Glenn Saunders" <gcsaunders@shaw.ca>
Cc: "Christopher Schall" <airborne@zoominternet.net>, "simon
haines" <horsarider@gmail.com>, "NIGEL HODGE"
<nsrj@btinternet.com>, "Harvey T.Dearden"
<htdearden@tdsl.org.uk>, "James Dalley"
<almekmanning@gmail.com>, "Richard A Martin"
<martinrick@msn.com>, "bob marley" <robocop01@gmx.net>
Betreff: Re: TFTonight - Critical hits - or PART 2 of
Survivability
Glenn,
I transcribed the Stirling damage charts to excel/pdf with your
suggested changes. Chose that because it's the plane I've been
flying, and was easiest to grab on my way out the door this
morning. If this seems worthwhile, I'll work on the others, too.
I can't figure out page breaks in excel all that well, so some
pages have less content than others, but this was the best way I
could get it without it getting all chopped up.
There may be typos in there - don't feel like proofing it just
yet, but I believe I should have all your suggestions
implemented properly. Especially double check the fuel loss
section and example.
Thanks!
On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:31 AM Glenn Saunders
<gcsaunders@shaw.ca> wrote:
OK – I’ve done some thinks about this Survivability
My experience is Bombers are not shot down from cumulative
damage.
I’ve never lost an aircraft to 6 Wing root hits and that
includes the new Vet\Expert SM chart
And we have already addressed the flak BIP which would have
caused me to lose at least one, maybe two aircraft but for LADY
LUCK on Random Events.
What takes a bomber down is a “Critical Hit”
1) Collision
2) Bomb Bay Hit to Bombs
3) Engine Fire
4) Fuel Tank Fire or Leakage too far from home
1) COLLISION
instead losing the Bomber (usually) on a roll of 6 on 1D6 after
Rolling for Collision
make it 11-12 on 2D6
RESULT
makes 16.66% become 8.34% of collision if you get this
2) BOMB BAY Bombs Hits
instead of 5-6 on 1D6 Bombs Explode
make it 10-12 on 2D6
RESULT
makes 33.32% become 16.67% chance of losing your airplane
even 9-12 instead of 10-12 makes is 27% instead of 33.32%
3) ENGINE FIRE (Note E on Wing Hits)
instead of 1D6, 1-4 Fire Out and 5-6 Fire Continues, try again -
two tries
make is 1-5 Fire Out and 6 Fire Continues
RESULT
makes 33.32% become 16.66% chance of losing your airplane
or if that was too much then 1-4 Fire Out on first roll and 1-5
on the second roll,??
4) FUEL TANKS
a) Fuel Tank Fire (NOTE G under wing hit)
instead of 1-2 Fire, 3-4 Leakage and 5-6 Self Seal on on 1D6
make it 1 Fire, 2-3 Leakage and 4-6 Self Seal on 1D6, so if 1
your still in trouble
RESULT
makes 33.32% become 16.67 chance of losing your airplane
b) Fuel Tank LEAKAGE and this one KILLS ME, because the amount
of fuel taken on a mission depends on the Target, Distance and
Bomb Load – and yet the game result is the SAME on these fuel
hits ....always 4 turns, 5 turns 6 turns ....doesn’t matter if
your bombing Abberville, 2 zones away, Berlin 11 zones away or
Milan through the alps ...what is it 16 or 17 zones.
ALSO ...and this is OK – but the game has a very simple model
for a multi engine, multi fuel tank airplanes where one guy does
a lot of tank to tank transfers and weight balancing so why is
such a leak so catastrophic?????
So lets look at NOTE H under Fuel Leak
if Leakage instead of 1D6 1-2 = 4 turns, 3-4 = 5 turns, 5-6 = 6
turns
Lets consider BERLIN as a EXAMPLE for this result above – it is
11 zones to Berlin
if your flying here and your in zone 7 OUTBOUND to target or
back to zone 7 inbound to base, or anywhere inbetween, you are
in big trouble because of this leak
and you are certainly going to lose the aircraft although you
have a slim chance to be able to ditch at sea and be rescued but
there is a stronger chance your are bailing out of Occupied
Europe and for you the war is over.
I propose if Leakage, roll 1D6 like above
make it 1D6, 1-2 = fuel lost not significant – No effect
...that’s 33% chance nothing bad will happen ...this is good.
make it 1D6, 3-5 = fuel lost for one third of the zones/turns to
target Fractions Rounded Down (FRD) ...we will discuss this
effect below
make it 1D6, 6 = fuel lost for half the zones/turns to target
Fractions Rounded Down (FRD)
What this means is on a 3-5 ...or 50% chance, on a mission to
Berlin, 11 zones away, you’ve lost 1/3*11 (FRD) or fuel for 3
zones worth of flying.
so going back to the example, if you are in zone 7 outbound and
this happens, ...simple ... you turn around and still have fuel
to make it home. If your finishing bombing the target and your
in zone 8 INBOUND to base, it means you are going to make it to
Zone 3 ..... you might be able to ditch at sea.
Now there is still a 16% chance that you are going to take
enough hits to enough different fuel tanks that drain out so
fast before the Flight Eng can pump it elsewhere that you are
going to lose 5 zones worth of fuel, you are still in a world of
hurt if your beyond that magic threshold to the target ....but
even if you are at ZONE 7 OUTBOUND to Berlin and you get this
result, you can still turn around and ditch at sea and live to
fight again.
ALTERNATIVELY we can consider on 1D6 roll of 3-4 = fuel loss of
1/3rd (instead of 3-5) .... and then on a roll of 5-6 could be
2/3rd or 7 zones worth of fuel instead of 5 zones
Have these ideas gone too far and made it too easy?
I like the way we took the teeth out of the BIP on Flak hits
I will stress again that what takes out aircraft is these
critical hits and not cum damage
What do you think?
Glenn
F
rom: Glenn Saunders
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 9:20 PM
To: Christopher Schall ; 'simon haines'
Cc: 'NIGEL HODGE' ; 'David Damrel' ; 'Harvey T.Dearden' ; 'James
Dalley' ; 'Richard A Martin' ; 'bob marley'
Subject: Re: TFTonight - servivablity - first thing we can do
...easy
There is already a
-2 bmbr pilot >10 missions
On Table 5-15 Continue NF attack and I can tell you this helps
....but you still have to get to 10 missions
SUGGESTION – ADD :
-1 bmbr pilot >5 missions
...give him half the ability half way there
*** And FWIW, I apply this modifier DURING the 5th or 10th
Mission on the “INBOUND TO BASE” Leg after Bombs away – it give
to the feel of the impact when the pilot just gets the AH MOMENT
in flight. “This is how it is done”
...but we still have to get to Mission #5
Glenn
#Post#: 19--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: Flying Dutchman Date: June 3, 2020, 12:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
One possible way to implement Bob’s ‘uneventful’ trip fix may be
available through the optional squadron game. The squadron game
extension is quick and easy to execute and gives some sense of
flying in a stream.
So, if you roll an ‘uneventful’ trip, execute the squadron rules
as usual but exempt ‘your’ bomber from attack. You still
perform an operation through all zones and get a bombing result
and other aircraft may still suffer. Would sit well with the
’full game experience outline’ thread posted on the Geek. You
record the operation and then look for the next operation date…
BTW, 7 on 2d6 is 16.7% so very close to the 17% ‘eventful’
sorties, but might risk a run of ‘uneventful’ operations that
would not be consistent with a ‘good game’? For game purposes
we might limit ‘uneventful’ trips to no more than 2 in a row? A
distortion I know, but does at least acknowledge the possibility
and not detract from game satisfaction unduly?
Yours sincerely,
Harvey T. Dearden CEng
11 Vincent Avenue
Llandudno
LL30 1NZ
Tel : 01492 876261
Mobile : 0783 454 1940
#Post#: 23--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: Airborne Date: June 3, 2020, 12:33 pm
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I have been using the current Kammhuber modifier where a 1-4 on
a D6 is an uneventful mission. I really like this. I play out
all of the zones with Altitude, Wx, (recall), Mech Fail,
Contrails (if applic), and then roll on the K chart. Only a 5-6
means I roll on the K chart 4-5. If the K chart is not in
play, I basically skip the rest of the mission except for the
wind/fuel check at the end. If I DO roll a 5-6, I play out the
entire rest of zone (including checking for collisions).
This seems to work really well.
Chris
#Post#: 27--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: Flying Dutchman Date: June 3, 2020, 2:49 pm
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I was thinking along the very same lines.
Really very simple, yet powerful for imho useful nuances.
As the early halifax and stirling were up for a lot more
trouble, you can easily handicap them by tweaking your roll.
And that is for the variant, where YOU know beforehand it will
be "easy" going.
I have been thinking to create a "suspensefuller" alternative
version, in which you DONT know if things will stay quiet.
But has to be equally simple.
Something along the line of pulling chits out of 6 cups, and
filling the 6 cups with the same statistics as a D6.
Shuffle them blind, and draw one cup to use in the next OP.
Every time a NF would appear, draw a chit and see.
Or simpler, use one cup to draw, and fill it with say 7:3 worth
of unevent:NF chits..
Thinking loud here...
Rob.
#Post#: 76--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: Glenn Saunders Date: June 5, 2020, 12:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Chris ...I was wondering how you did it.
I saw this on the charts but I was rolling for it EACH ZONE
.....like a preKAMMHUBER.
Consider adding clarification.
Also ..... If uneventful ....is that both ways ....or do you
reroll on the target for uneventful trip home separately
#Post#: 78--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: Airborne Date: June 5, 2020, 12:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
yes, I roll once each zone, when I reach the Kammhuber part. I
use this on the return trip as well.
#Post#: 85--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: davezissou Date: June 5, 2020, 1:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hmm, what about rolling a percentile for uneventful - say like
before takeoff you roll d100, if it's within 25%, then
uneventful (25 is just a throw out number, could be lower, or
higher), then you basically skim through all OTB zones to TZ,
simulate TZ in real time, then roll d100 again for INB, 25%
means you skim through the return, if it's 26% or higher then
you go through each zone in real time.
If this roll is implemented for each mission, then maybe
consecutive missions could be reduced by a few percentage
points. Until you reach a point where you have to simulate the
full mission - of course can be overridden at any time.
#Post#: 87--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: davezissou Date: June 5, 2020, 1:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Flying Dutchman link=topic=12.msg27#msg27
date=1591213755]
I have been thinking to create a "suspensefuller" alternative
version, in which you DONT know if things will stay quiet.
But has to be equally simple.
Something along the line of pulling chits out of 6 cups, and
filling the 6 cups with the same statistics as a D6.
Shuffle them blind, and draw one cup to use in the next OP.
Every time a NF would appear, draw a chit and see.
Or simpler, use one cup to draw, and fill it with say 7:3 worth
of unevent:NF chits..
Thinking loud here...
[/quote]
Hmm, this is cool, too - similar to one of the leader games from
DVG, right? Maybe we can use a mix of the fire extinguisher, and
various wound counters to represent the results - since as you
guys started showing how the game didn't require counters or a
board, I've totally gone off them! =D
#Post#: 88--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: Airborne Date: June 5, 2020, 2:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I use wound counters. LOL. And heat and O2 out. Plenty left
to use though.
#Post#: 121--------------------------------------------------
Re: ON UNEVENTFUL FLIGHTS
By: Flying Dutchman Date: June 7, 2020, 6:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=davezissou link=topic=12.msg85#msg85
date=1591381276]
Hmm, what about rolling a percentile for uneventful - say like
before takeoff you roll d100, if it's within 25%, then
uneventful (25 is just a throw out number, could be lower, or
higher), then you basically skim through all OTB zones to TZ,
simulate TZ in real time, then roll d100 again for INB, 25%
means you skim through the return, if it's 26% or higher then
you go through each zone in real time.
If this roll is implemented for each mission, then maybe
consecutive missions could be reduced by a few percentage
points. Until you reach a point where you have to simulate the
full mission - of course can be overridden at any time.
[/quote]
The basic idea I had with uneventful mission, (hereafter
uneventful OP: UO) was that on every RL OP, most (ca. 80%) a/c
came home eventually without a scratch.
To illustrate, I analysed a Berlin OP (not an easy target)
attached below.
An UO counts for the entire flight. (or so the idea) So thatn
the statistics remain intact.
Turning percentages into dice rolls is easy.
So from a game point of view, who would want to fly 80% of 30=
24 OPS for free?
And that means indeed (on rough average) each crew flies 6
completely real time OPS. Dangerous ones.
What is free? no flak and fighters whatsoever, only rolling for
bomb result?
I would say for the UO planes: only bombing and not bother with
anything else. That what unevenful is.
Just nothing worthwhile from this OP to tell in the Bar. And
especially speeds up play of an less interesting part.
Then:
Playing the squadron game can be key to keep it interesting, as
there will be only 3 out of 16 planes in trouble, requiring to
be played.
OR 2.4 of 12 if you believe the game.
Considering that lack of counters (12...) AND the wish to play
an OP with not too many planes realtime (to avoid samesness) you
might also consider yourself to be a flight leader of 8 planes.
That would make 1.5 planes in trouble, to fly in real time per
OP.
An additional advantage is, that losing a crew allows spawning
into the next, keeping the previous time invested in playing,
more wortwhile whilst not significantly investing more time.
more to follow, comments?
Read as follows: follow green numbers from 0 to 6 clockwise
with breakdown comments.
[attachimg=1]
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