DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Sober Thinking
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Who CAN you Trust?
*****************************************************
#Post#: 348--------------------------------------------------
Corporate Fascist Corruption of Christianity
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: June 9, 2022, 12:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
SOJOURNERS
June 9, 2022 BY ADAM RUSSELL TAYLOR 🕊️
[center]WHY CHRISTIANS NEED TO WATCH THE JAN. 6 HEARINGS
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-090422150144.png[/center]
[center][img
width=640]
HTML https://sojo.net/sites/default/files/styles/large_rectangle_crop/public/blog/jan._6_hearings.png?itok=aOT6-F_C[/img][/center]
U.S. Capitol Police officer Sgt. Aquilino Gonell, DC
Metropolitan Police Department officer Michael Fanone, DC
Metropolitan Police Department officer Daniel Hodges, and US
Capitol Police officer Harry Dunn watch a video of the Jan. 6
attack during a July 27, 2021 hearing of the House select
committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack. Andrew
Caballero-Reynolds/Pool via REUTERS
SNIPPETS:
So why are these hearings important? Despite some incredible
work by journalists — like this chilling 10-minute video
HTML https://apnews.com/article/jan-6-capitol-siege-video-documents-riot-8233cf9850c2859ca8e412090f7b6159<br
/>from the Associated Press that offers chronological footage of
what happened on Jan. 6 — the truth about that day remains
obscured. This obscurity weakens our democracy and emboldens
those who enabled and participated in the worst assault on the
Capitol since the War of 1812
HTML https://theconversation.com/the-us-capitol-has-been-stormed-before-when-british-troops-burned-washington-in-1814-152843.<br
/>
Jesus’ often-quoted words remain relevant: “If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the
truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:31). We need to
know the truth about who masterminded the insurrection to hold
these leaders accountable and protect the integrity of our
democracy. ... ...
Yet, as the committee prepares to hold its first public
hearings, the 🐘 political Right has been diminishing and
obfuscating the severity and importance of what happened on Jan.
6 from nearly the moment it happened, 🐍 creating an
environment
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/14/mark-meadows-texts-fox-news-donald-trump-jr-capitol-attack<br
/>where many Americans question the facts.
[center]
HTML https://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/styles/renewablerevolution/files/844_Aug6o9_Savage_Mislead_LG-440x501.jpeghttps://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-250817122714.jpeghttps://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-080422121934.png[/center]
Instead of airing tonight’s
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120422122619-6771496.gif<br
/>hearings,
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040622210450-1415528.gif<br
/>Fox News opted to stick with their top rated “😈 Tucker
Carlson Tonight.
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/jun/07/fox-news-tucker-carlson-public-capitol-attack-jan-6-hearings”<br
/>
HTML https://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/2/3-231021162042.gif
🐍 Carlson has already downplayed the insurrection’s
significance numerous times, including saying
HTML https://www.businessinsider.com/tucker-carlson-says-on-january-6-anniversary-barely-a-footnote-2022-1<br
/>it “barely rates as a footnote,” so there is little doubt he
will be doing more of the
HTML https://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/2/3-080419191019.png<br
/>same as the hearings air.
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-080422121435.png
Full article:
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040422164555-532108.png
HTML https://sojo.net/articles/why-christians-need-watch-jan-6-hearings
[move]Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be
unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Proverbs 11:21 King James Version[/move]
#Post#: 382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Corporate Fascist Corruption of Christianity
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: June 23, 2022, 9:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
SOJOURNERS
June 23, 2022 BY Michael O. Emerson 🕊️
[center][size=18pt][b]What Happens When 😈 White Identity
Comes Before Christian Faith?
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-050422145533-5671050.gif
[/center]
SNIPPETS:
In the U.S. today, an entire religion has developed around the
worship of the 🦍 dominance, centrality, privilege, and
assumed universality of being white. “White is 😈 right,”
so this religion postulates, and it has developed a particular
set of beliefs, practices (such as a highly selective use of
biblical scriptures), and organizations to support, defend, and
teach its “faith.” ... ...
We found this pattern over and over again: White practicing
Christians differed from Christians of other racial groups and
from non-Christian whites whenever the topic was race. For
example, white practicing Christians are twice as likely as
other whites to say “being white” is important to them and twice
as likely as other whites to say they feel the need to defend
their race. Through extensive statistical analyses, we found
that two-thirds of practicing white Christians are following, in
effect, a religion of whiteness. They repeatedly placed being
white ahead of being Christian; the findings were not explained
away by political affiliation, location, age, education, income,
gender, or other factors.
Read more:
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040422164555-532108.png
HTML https://sojo.net/magazine/july-2022/what-happens-when-white-identity-comes-christian-faith
#Post#: 390--------------------------------------------------
Re: Corporate Fascist Corruption of Christianity
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: June 27, 2022, 11:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120422130903-68837.png[/center]
June 27, 2022 By David Goodman
[center]Bill McKibben 👍 reconsiders his boyhood and the
American dream[/center]
SNIPPETS:
Bill McKibben thought he knew where he came from. He grew up in
the tidy, affluent and predominantly white suburban community of
Lexington, Massachusetts. As a teenager, he gave tours on the
Lexington Battle Green, regaling visitors with tales about the
opening shots of the American Revolution. He thought the United
States was the greatest force for good in the world.
Fifty years later, McKibben, now 61, has a very different
perspective. He sees a world riven by racial and economic
inequality. He has dedicated his life to stopping the climate
crisis, a human-caused disaster that his generation has done
much to create. The big question on McKibben’s mind today is
this:
What the hell happened ?
Bill McKibben tackles this question in his new book, “The Flag,
The Cross, and the Station Wagon: A Graying American Looks Back
at His Suburban Boyhood and Wonders What the Hell Happened.”
McKibben lives in Ripton, Vermont, and is the author of more
than a dozen other books, including “The End of Nature,” which
was the first book to warn the general public about the climate
crisis. He is a regular contributor to the New Yorker, writes a
blog about the climate crisis called The Crucial Years and
founded the global grassroots climate campaign 350.org. He was
the recipient of the Gandhi Peace Award and the Right Livelihood
Award, known as “the alternative Nobel.” He is the Schumann
Distinguished Scholar in Environmental Studies at Middlebury
College. His latest project is Third Act, which is organizing
people over 60 for progressive change. ... ...
David Goodman
Spirituality has been important to you in your life. What has
happened to American Christianity in our lifetime?
Bill McKibben
That's an interesting story. Just the numbers are fascinating.
In 1970, 52% of Americans belonged to one of the mainline
liberal Protestant denominations — Presbyterians, Lutherans,
Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Methodist. Fifty years later,
that number is about 15%. That's an incredible change in a very
short period of time. What happened? They were replaced by
evangelical Christianity, which followed the same path as our
political history. We went from a religious consensus on the
idea of building a better community and of working in harmony,
to an evangelical Christianity that was mostly focused on the
very individual and personal relationship with God, and had no
use and no time for building a better community. It became the
ally of the exact same trend in our political life, exemplified
by Ronald Reagan, and the move to a kind of
hyper-individualized, privatized political world where we gave
up on the Depression-era, post World War Two-era project of
building an America that provided a modest prosperity for
everyone, and instead went to work in America where the goal was
to see if some people could get super rich and let market forces
solve all problems instead of trying to see if we might be able
to solve them together.
David Goodman
As a college newspaper reporter you actually took a trip to the
megachurch of Jim and Tammy Bakker, one of the first
multi-million dollar televangelist empires. What did you see
when you got there?
Bill McKibben
Heritage USA which they built was at the time the second biggest
tourist attraction in America behind only Disney World, which is
what it looked like. It had rides and hotels and a re-creation
of the room where Jesus had the last supper. Of course, it was
mostly grift. There was a giant ziggurat of headquarters,
Crystal Palace, where they did their broadcasts from. But in the
basement, there was a room with 100 or 200 women sitting at
tables just slitting open envelopes and shaking out checks and
prayer requests. And the checks went to the bank and the prayer
requests went into the trash.
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-080422123949.jpeghttps://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422173143-79252.jpeg[/center]
And that was PTL, Praise the Lord. I saw early what direction
that was all going to take.
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422172931-7541159.jpeg[/center]
David Goodman
You were part of a New England church community when you grew
up. What is the appeal of the evangelical churches that has
enabled them to become these enormous grift machines and are so
popular?
Bill McKibben
It's precisely the same appeal of Reagan-era political life: you
don't have a responsibility to anybody but yourself. And
responsibility in church terms is relatively easily taken care
of: you announce you’re Christian, perhaps you're born again in
some ceremony, and then good to go. There's no responsibility to
the larger world, you don't have to try and deal with the
difficult problems of poverty or the things that Jesus insisted
we were supposed to be dealing with. So it was much easier in
that sense.
David Goodman
Talk about the nexus of race and the evangelical movement. You
quote one scholar saying, “The best way to predict how often a
white evangelical will go to church is to know his score on an
index of racial feelings: the more racist, the more hours in the
pews.”
Bill McKibben
What the sociologists have found is that either as a cause or a
result of being an evangelical Christian, people have developed
a set of beliefs about the world, including a very strong belief
that everybody's outcomes are the result of their own free will
and their own hard work. So when you ask people, “Black people
are much poorer than white people in this country. Is that the
result of them not working hard or is that the result of
racism?” Evangelicals by and large say, “They don't work hard.
And if they did, everything would be okay.” That is part and
parcel of that very personalized view of religion. It's a one on
one relationship between you and God and a very personalized
view of political life. It can't deal with the notion that
history matters, that structures matter, that facts matter.
Full MUST READ article:
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-110422205132-6472099.gif<br
/>
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040422164555-532108.png
HTML https://vtdigger.org/2022/06/26/vermont-conversation-bill-mckibben-reconsiders-his-boyhood-and-the-american-dream/
[move]"Capitalist ideology claims that the world is perfectly
ordered and everybody is in their place (i.e. everybody gets
what they deserve). This self legitmating aspect of Capitalism
is Socially Catastrophic. This is the Victorian view of the
world." Rob Urie - Author "Zen Economics"[/move]
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422173054-7752327.jpeg[/center]
#Post#: 982--------------------------------------------------
Corporate 😈 Corruption of Christianity 😟
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: April 6, 2023, 2:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
AGelbert NOTE: All graphics are by yours truly.
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-141222170321.jpeg
[move]This is a talk I gave on April 6 at a
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-230622123301.gif<br
/>protest at Princeton Theological Seminary demanding the
removal
of [glow=red,2,300]hedge fund billionaire[/glow]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040622153112-1373803.png<br
/>[glow=red,2,300]Michael Fisch[/glow]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-080422121611.png<br
/>as chair of the seminary's trustee board.[/move]
APRIL 6, 2023 By CHRIS HEDGES
SNIPPET:
The
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040622210450-1415528.gifhttps://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-010922192452.gif[glow=red,2,300]wealthy<br
/>🎩 industrialists [/glow]in the 1930s and 1940s poured
money and resources into the church, including seminaries such
as Princeton Theological, to [glow=red,2,300]crush[/glow] the
[glow=blue,2,300]Social Gospel[/glow], led by
[glow=blue,2,300]Christian[/glow] [glow=green,2,300]radicals and
socialists[/glow]. They funded a brand of Christianity — which
today is dominant — that conflates faith with free enterprise
and American exceptionalism. The church has gone down the rabbit
hole of a [glow=red,2,300]narcissistic how-is-it-with-me form of
spirituality[/glow].
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422173057-7782113.jpeghttps://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-101222220934.png[/center]
The rich are rich, this 😈 [glow=red,2,300]creed[/glow]
goes, not because they are greedy or privileged, not because
they use their power to exploit others, but because they are
brilliant and gifted leaders, worthy of being lionized, like
Bill Gates or Jamie Dimon, as oracles. This belief is not only
[glow=red,2,300]delusional[/glow], but [b]Christian
[glow=red,2,300]heresy[/glow].[/b] The word
[glow=red,2,300]heresy[/glow] comes from the Greek verb hireo,
which means to 🦍 grasp or to seize - to seize for
yourself at someone else’s expense. You don’t need to spend
three years at Harvard Divinity School as I did, to figure out
[glow=blue,2,300]Jesus[/glow] did not come to make us rich.
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422173143-79252.jpeghttps://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422160812-7362469.png[/center]
The liberal church committed suicide when it severed itself from
this radicalism. Radical Christians led the abolitionist
movement, were active in the Anti-Imperialist League, defended
workers during bloody labor wars, fought for women’s suffrage,
formulated the [glow=blue,2,300]Social Gospel [/glow]— which
included campaigns for prison reform and educational programs
for the incarcerated — and were engines in the civil rights and
anti-war movements. The socialist presidential candidate
[glow=blue,2,300][b]Eugene V. Debs[/glow] spent far more time
quoting the ☝🏻
[glow=blue,2,300][glow=teal,2,300]Bible[/glow][/glow]
🕊️[/b] than Karl Marx. His successor, Norman
Thomas, was a Presbyterian minister.
These [glow=blue,2,300]radicals[/glow] were not embraced by
the[glow=red,2,300] institutional church[/glow], which served as
a bulwark of the 😈🎩 establishment, but
[glow=blue,2,300]they kept the church vital and prophetic.
[/glow]
Full EXCELLENT article about [glow=red,2,300]Mammon worshipping
Heretics[/glow] (i.e. the so-called "liberal Christian
Denominations" who claim to be Christian 😇, but NEVER
WERE:
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040422164520-5301778.gifhttps://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040422164555-532108.png[/center]
HTML https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/the-hypocrisy-of-the-christian-church
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422160913-7501560.pnghttps://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422140934-7242145.jpeg[/center]
#Post#: 1309--------------------------------------------------
🐘 White Christian 👿☠️ nationalism
is NOT ☝🏻🕊️ CHRISTIANITY!
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: September 14, 2023, 11:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[center]How [glow=red,2,300]White Christian Nationalism[/glow]
threatens our democracy[/center]
[center]
HTML https://youtu.be/U6L5QXTgErI[/center]
In an important [glow=teal,2,300]panel discussion[/glow]
HTML https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/2022/10/27/white-christian-nationalism-is-not-christianity-presiding-bishop-says-during-panel-discussion/<br
/>with the 🕊️ [glow=teal,2,300]Christians[/glow]
Against 🐘 [glow=red,2,300]Christian Nationalism[/glow]
initiative last year, Episcopal Church Presiding Bishop Michael
Curry said that Christian nationalism is not Christianity.
SNIPPETS:
The seminar, titled “How White Christian Nationalism threatens
our democracy,” took place at the university’s Center on Faith
and Justice and was hosted by the Rev. Jim Wallis, the center’s
founding director and founder of Sojourners. Co-sponsored by the
Episcopal Diocese of Washington, Washington National Cathedral
and the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty, the
discussion brought together Wallis, Curry, BJC Executive
Director Amanda Tyler and University of Oklahoma sociology
professor Samuel Perry.
“I would say that
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120422122619-680240.png<br
/>[glow=red,2,300]🐘 white Christian nationalism[/glow]
is
the single greatest threat to democracy in America,” Wallis
warned in his introduction. “It’s also the
[glow=red,2,300]greatest
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120422122619-6812456.gif<br
/>threat[/glow] to the integrity of the Christian witness.”
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-250422162847-10321563.png[/center]<br
/>... ...
Curry urged [glow=teal,2,300]Christians[/glow] to
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-090422150144.png<br
/>speak out against these ideas, saying that “silence is
[glow=red,2,300]complicity[/glow] and silence creates a context
in which something like that can grow.” One of the most powerful
tools[glow=teal,2,300] Christians[/glow] have, he said, is the
[glow=teal,2,300]Bible[/glow] itself.
“Lift up the text of the New Testament, specifically the four
Gospels … and let Jesus talk. Anything that claims to be
Christian, if it doesn’t match up, then we say, ‘Well, that’s
not Christianity.’”
“It’s not conservative Christianity. Obviously, it’s not liberal
Christianity either,” Curry said. “What we’re actually
describing is [glow=red,2,300]an 🐘 ideology[/glow]
that’s not really a religion, but it
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120422134817-7042316.jpeg<br
/>looks like a religion and
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120422122619-6812456.gif<br
/>invokes language and symbols that have 😇 religious
traffic.
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-240422195003-9352059.jpeg[/center]<br
/>… ...
"If you look at the complex of [glow=red,2,300]white Christian
nationalism[/glow] as an 👿☠️ ideology,"
Curry warned, "you lay it alongside
[glow=teal,2,300]☝🏻🕊️ Jesus of
Nazareth[/glow] and we're not even talking about the same
thing."
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-110822211615-18511577.gif[/center]
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040422164613-5332481.jpeg[/center]
[center]Free FAQ and Resources: [glow=red,2,300]White Christian
nationalism[/glow] is not Christianity
HTML https://act.faithfulamerica.org/signup/christian-nationalism-resources/?t=3&akid=8647%2E913184%2ErP5vdH[/center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422140843-7202138.jpeg
#Post#: 1356--------------------------------------------------
Socialism without God is Quixotic -- The ROOT Cause of Human
Depravity is PRIDE
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: October 11, 2023, 4:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
COUNTERPUNCH
OCTOBER 6, 2023 BY ROB URIE
[center]The
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040622210450-1415528.gif<br
/>Americans
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-100823181638.png<br
/>are Unleashing
[glow=red,2,300]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-100323184256-23092252.gif<br
/>Monsters[/glow] They Have No Idea How to Contain[/center]
SNIPPETS:
Via technology, capital has shifted from using psychological
coercion to sell its wares to using state power to force
consumption. With a stunning lack of political foresight, the US
has created commercial dependencies— e.g. the insurance industry
bears no natural relation to healthcare, that leave ‘us’
beholden to corporate power. ... ...
According to a new poll from the Pew Research Center, only four
percent (4%) of Americans believe that the American political
system is working. Four percent 👀. In 2023. The reason
why the year is important is because the elevation of Joe Biden
was the response-from-power that was supposed to right the
ship-of-state. ... ... as the results of the Pew poll suggest,
the public has lost political interest in policies that benefit
oligarchs and corporate executives alone. This result pits the
institutions of the Federal government against the political
will of the American people. ... ...
Woke fantasies and seven dollars might buy someone a cup of
coffee. But the surge in corporate profits— while labor sees
none of it, illustrates the challenge. As long as race is in the
aggregate a class relation, woke solutions from authoritarian
liberals will be racist. Consider: Joe Biden has been sold as
the second coming of Dr. Martin Luther King. What has he
[glow=red,2,300]wrought[/glow]? A surge in corporate profits,
the creation of a permanently disabled class from long Covid,
and a proxy war against nuclear-armed Russia. I fail to see the
social justice of any of this.
Full article: 💣👀
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040422164555-532108.png
HTML https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/10/06/the-americans-are-unleashing-monsters-they-have-no-idea-how-to-contain/
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/2/3-310119164018.gif<br
/>
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/1/3-120818185039-16521065.gif:
dreamjoehill2
An excellent article that clearly outlines the deterioration of
the left in the US and its causes.
AGelbert > dreamjoehill2
Agreed. Rob Urie is one of the most reality based writers out
there.
"Capitalist ideology claims that the world is perfectly ordered
and everybody is in their place (i..e. everybody gets what they
deserve). This self legitmating aspect of Capitalism is Socially
Catastrophic." Rob Urie
dreamjoehill2 > AGelbert
Right on!
Urie is my fave counterpunch contributor and I always read
Friday's Roaming Charges by that site's editor.
Urie's take on the reactionary nature of woke ruling class
politics is spot on.
newestbeginning Mod
I put this up with a disclaimer that I do not concur with what
the author refers to as the "fascist left". By that, I think he
means the neoliberal Democratic party pseudoleft, aka "right"
leaning opposition to the working class in the class struggle.
HTML https://ongoingclassstruggle.blogspot.com/2023/10/the-americans-are-unleashing-monsters.html#comment-6298117979
AGelbert > newestbeginning Mod
Today's article by Christ Hedges, perhaps, makes Rob Urie's
remarks in regard to the "Left" more understandable. At the root
of this miasma of perception management propaganda we find
ourselves in is the constant highjacking of labels by those who
wish to confuse and manipulate us.
[center]
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-250817122714.jpeg[/center]
Both Rob Urie ✨and Chris Hedges ✨ work overtime
warning advocates of an ethics based society that they must
always read the fine print, so to speak.
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120422134817-7042316.jpeg[/center]
Some leftists will not like the "self-righteous woke ideology"
phraseology in this paragraph, though they will be quite happy
with the adjective (i.e. "Christianized") describing the Fascist
State now taking over the USA.
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-021022180016.gif[/center]
October 8, 2023 Fascism comes to America by Chris Hedges
SNIPPETS:
"The parting gift, I expect, of the bankrupt liberalism of the
Democratic Party will be a Christianized fascist state. The
liberal class, a creature of corporate power, captive to the war
industry and the security state, unable or unwilling to
ameliorate the prolonged economic insecurity and misery of the
working class, blinded by a self-righteous woke ideology that
reeks of hypocrisy and disingenuousness and bereft of any
political vision, is the bedrock on which the Christian
fascists, who have coalesced in cult-like mobs around Donald
Trump, have built their terrifying movement." ... ...
Of course, all socialists that are firmly grounded in ethics
will agree with this irrefutably true paragraph, from the same
article:
"We were warned. The seeds of fascism, like the climate
emergency, were apparent decades ago. The leading scholars of
fascism told us that unless American society halted its slide to
ever greater levels of social inequality and returned democratic
power to a betrayed populace, fascism would metastasize and
consume the state. The ruling class, blinded by greed, a lust
for power and willful ignorance, was as deaf to these warnings
as they were to those of climate scientists."
Full article with comments:
HTML https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/fascism-comes-to-america/
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-080822134118-1710799.gif
Reality Based COMMENT agreeing about the Evil of US Fascism BUT
totally disagreeing with Chris's allegation that "Christian" (my
quotes, not Chris's) Fascists are a large part of the problem.
Facsists ARE the problem, but Fascism is ANTI-Christian, not
"Christian". The ruling class's Social Darwinist PRO-FASCIST
ideology is 100% ANTI-Matthew 7:12.:
Elizabeth Heilman 👍
Most people in the plains sates and in rural communities live in
what Edward Hall calls "high context" cultures, valuing
relationships, hard work, nature and spirituality. Many rural
folk are aware of the dangerous the uniparty and fascism and are
nobody's fool. The rhetoric of "exclusion, cruelty and
intolerance" is from the powerful who manipulate the press and
politicians and a small number of emotionally vulnerable people.
It is NOT AT ALL how most red state Christian Americans think or
feel. It is time for solidarity, Chris, not hysterical
demonizations of whole groups Americans.
🐘 Christian 👿 nationalism is not
🕊️☝🏻 Christianity
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/who-can-you-trust/corporate-fascist-corruption-of-christianity/msg1309/#msg1309
As a Christian who views Socialism as the logical effect of a
Matthew 7:12 based morality, even if Engels and Marx most
certainly did not, all I can do is try as hard as I can to
separate truth from legerdemain. It is like a well, a DEEP
subject.
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-040622153114-13781743.gif
newestbeginning Mod > AGelbert
The problem with the "Christian" label is that anyone can claim
it; and many who do behave in what appear to be very cruel,
sadistic and generally un-Chistlike ways. When the fascists
claim the label, and hold up the Cross in front of them to
justify their cruelty and entitlement, it tarnishes those who
try to walk the walk and follow the Golden Rule.
Dmar3 > newestbeginning
I'd say an even more fundamental question is whether the Golden
Rule even works at all?
AGelbert > Dmar3
Indeed. If there is no God, and no immortal soul within every
human being, the Golden Rule is for suckers and Social Darwinism
is for the winners.
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all
people most to be pitied. -- 1 Corinthians 15:19
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422160904-749649.jpeg[/center]
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422173132-7871023.png[/center]
newestbeginning Mod > Dmar3
I don't know, but it seems like the only way to live; to put the
needs of others first when possible. It is part of our human
heritage - our species only survived because of sharing.
newestbeginning > Mod Dmar3
No of course I don't think that the ruling class follows the
Golden Rule. Of course they don't. They extract everything from
the world that they can at the expense of everyone else.
Of course they don't value the things that the working class
values, no matter how much lip service they pay to the pretense.
AGelbert > newestbeginning Mod
True. Sophistry based legerdemain is the bread and butter of
those con artists that make it their business to exploit their
fellow humans.
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-080422123949.jpeg[/center]
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422140742-716139.png[/center]
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170422160812-737823.png[/center]
Dmar3 > AGelbert
I don't believe in god or an immortal soul but I absolutely
don't believe in social Darwinism either.
AGelbert > Dmar3
I celebrate your rejection of Social Darwinism. The more people
reject that insanity, the more hope we have that we are not all
toast within a century or so.
[center]
HTML https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-080223161254-21972090.png[/center]
Dmar3 > AGelbert
"Indeed. If there is no God, and no immortal soul within every
human being, the Golden Rule is for suckers and Social Darwinism
is for the winners."
But historically a huge number of socialists and anarchists
would dispute this, and they've got quite a bit of evidence on
their side. Like Kropotkin, or Graeber's work, et cetera.
They're not/they weren't making theological, moral arguments.
They were making arguments that people were better off with
cooperative social arrangements instead of competitive ones that
invariably only favored the existing winners and were then
oriented towards protecting their power, and in Graeber's case,
even complex societies.
Furthermore, it seems like Christianity, institutionally, has
been changed more through abandonment or the threat, implicit to
explicit, of severe disestablishment as compared to internal
criticism. But one of the points that I'm trying to build
towards (although perhaps in an inept manner) is that it seems
like for decades criticism of all...this has been treated as an
internal manner between different groups of Christians or
systems of such, and as such hasn't had as much to do with
people outside of this except in a kind of patronizing way, and
has frequently neglected coming up with solutions to the kinds
of problems that I'd say that most people who aren't totally far
gone would actually say really are terrible, but haven't really
seen much resolution for either.
Its the difference between having charity or pity for prisoners,
and being willing to commit to actually ending incarceration
with all of the social and material changes that this would
entail.
Dmar3 > newestbeginning
Yes, but that's not the Golden Rule the way I see it being
formalized and used (or rather: weaponized). You can't possibly
claim that we're actually ruled by people who believe in that in
any possible way. If what they want is to keep ruling us no
matter how cruel and violent they are then there's no possible
way to put their needs first without saying that everything that
you value that's better than that is basically meaningless. So
there has to be some limit to this, but I don't think that
treating it as an absolute really takes that into account.
AGelbert > Dmar3
I understand your point of view, but question your basic premise
about the motives of the "rulers" over us.
From a secular ONLY social studies perspective, Academia also
rejects your premise. I'm not fully on board with secular social
studies assumptions, but I fully support Academia in their claim
that the Dunbar Number (i.e. around 250 total village
population) is the upper limit for a society run mostly by
cooperation and altruism. Above that number, the "baser"
instincts become prevalent due to lack of interpersonal
relationships.
Dmar3 > AGelbert
So I'm going to ask a related question because there's a common
thread running through all of this in your positions: how many
people do you think are going to support the total dismantling
of society so that there are nothing but villages of 262 (maybe
270 but that's really pushing it!) people left?
AGelbert > Dmar3
Dmar3: "So I'm going to ask a related question because there's a
common thread running through all of this in your positions: how
many people do you think are going to support the total
dismantling of society so that there are nothing but villages of
262 (maybe 270 but that's really pushing it!) people left?"
The "common thread" you assume to be "running through all my
positions" is a perception you have. As to ideal human
interpersonal relations, which is what I assume you are
referring to, I have only one position: Matthew 7:12 is sine
qua non to a socially constructive civilization. The Dunbar
Number phenomenon is a secular Social Science based observation.
Social Scientists could care less about what Jesus Christ said.
They simply looked at the evidence.
The question you posed is not relevant to the Dunbar Number. A
condominium with 250 or so people living in it is certainly not
a village, but, if most people there looked after each other
responsibly, this would qualify as a Matthew 7:12 based
harmonious community. The argument often put against this type
of "small town" situation is that small towns have a (mostly
undeserved) reputation for being intolerant of diversity,
socially suffocating and intellectually stunted. That certainly
is true in some cases. Those statistical outliers are examples
of small populations where the Dunbar Matthew 7:12 math failed
because most of the members are too morally bankrupt and/or too
stupid to realize that their neighbor's welfare is intimately
tied to their own. It is difficult to fix stupid.
If you want to get into land area versus population
distribution, I can go there, but before I do, let me ask you
how many people you actually have conversed with in your entire
life? Next, I would ask you how many people you have conversed
with in the last year. Next I would ask you to classify them in
one of three categories (i.e. Friends, Enemies or Neutral
Acquaintances). You may reside in a city with millions of people
in it, but your circle of interpersonnal relationships can
easily be considered a "village". Condemning the Dunbar Number
as "impractical in a 9 billion world population" ignores the
irrefutable reality that we are all cognitively limited to small
numbers of human interpersonal relationships. Trump is as much a
part of your "village" as Elvis. Those people may have
influenced you and I in negative and positive ways, but we know
they were never a part of our daily. monthly, yearly (and so on)
lives except to buy a record or try to avoid being overtaxed.
Anyway, I agree that it is ridiculous to try to engineer Dunbar
Number based caring relationships by redistributing the human
population into around 250 people cities. I am certainly NOT
advocating that.
What I am advocating is that, as opposed to Margarat Thatcher's
morally bankrupt BS, There Is No (socially constructive)
Alternative to Matthew 7:12 based civilization.
And yeah, you are quite right if you believe the trend is
certainly not my friend. So, your alternative is to let it all
hang out? THAT is your definition of "Socialism"? We are all
going to respect each other's needs because Marx said so? We are
all going to look after the poor and needy because Marx said so?
We are all going to keep nursing homes from hastening the death
of the residents, never mind ripping them off with outrageous
fees, because Engels said comrades don't do that? I was there in
1965, bro. I have been there, watching and experiencing the
"progress" we have made here in the USA along the way. I have
watched as the Game Theory (i.e. might equals right, altruism is
to be used as a ploy to lower the competition's guard so you can
pounce and crush them later, everyone is basically selfish,
piety is a hypocritical front, there is a sucker born every
minute, good guys finish last, the language of evolution
explains the growing gulf between the rich and the poor, as well
as the many differences between cultures all over the world,
businessmen and others who are economically and socially
successful are so because they are biologically and socially
“naturally” the fittest, the poor are “naturally” weak and unfit
and it would be an error to allow the weak of the species to
continue to breed, etc. ad infinitum ad neauseum.) worldview
blanketed the USA.
You do not agree with my Christian worldview position, but I
fail to see absolutely any rational argument you can make
(mocking, disdain, dismissal, etc. is fun but it scores no
debating points whatsoever) that Socialism, without Matthew 7:12
being an instrinsic part of it, will not continue to fail
against the forces of egocentric greed.
Collectivist Action > AGelbert
I find no necessary nor intrinsic antagonism between your
(genuine) Christian view and Marxism.
Do you?
AGelbert > Collectivist Action
🤠 Thank you, bro. In material cause and effect it is 6
of one and half a dozen of the other. The ideological difference
lies in that Marx excludes the afterlife or a human immortal
spirit from his ideology and Christians accept it.
This too is like a well, a DEEP subject. The caveat I would add
is that I totally disagree with Marx's admiration for Darwin and
I think, whatever modern Marxists claim about Marx and Engels,
both of them had VERY CLEAR concepts of what was Socially RIGHT
and WRONG. Today, there is too much wishy washy crap out there.
I haven't been inside a church for over 35 years, yet I have the
bold faced "arrogance" to call myself a Christian. Well, if I'm
going to Hell because I cannot stomach the heretical
"Christianity" now dominant in the USA, then so be it. God is
Righteous, so I'm sure my avoiding "fellowship" with corrupted
churches is justified. Hell is for the unjust, IMHO.
I'm currently listening to some great sermons by Christian
Socialist Frederick Denison Maurice 🕊️ in 1852. I
do all my "church" on the internet.
Dmar3 > AGelbert
"🤠 Thank you, bro. In material cause and effect it is 6
of one and half a dozen of the other. The ideological difference
lies in that Marx excludes the afterlife or a human immortal
spirit from his ideology and Christians accept it."
Would you really call that the only ideological difference? I'd
hardly say that Marx believed that either humanity or for that
matter the world were fallen in any kind of metaphysical sense.
In fact, I'd say that a really important point to Marx and later
socialists is an underlying assumption which desperately needs
to be explicitly stated given how much its been abandoned and
how deleterious this has been that the human condition can
actually be improved.
AGelbert > Dmar3
Dmar3 asked, Would you really call that the only ideological
difference?
Of course there are lots of other differences, but they are not,
strictly speaking, ideological according to the following
definition in Wikipedia (emphasis and definition of "epistemic"
added by me):
"An ideology is a set of beliefs or philosophies attributed to a
person or group of persons, especially those held for reasons
that are not purely epistemic (relating to knowledge
itself),[1][2] in which "practical elements are as prominent as
theoretical ones."[3] Formerly applied primarily to economic,
political, or religious theories and policies, in a tradition
going back to Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, more recent use
treats the term as mainly condemnatory.[4]"
Engels did a lot of great work exposing the brutal conditions of
the poor in 19th century London, where people that worked in
factories were forced to literally live in disease laden
overcrowded, filfth ridden conditions without sewers or running
water. They were forced to live with their fecal matter all
around them. They were mercilessly exploited during their short,
misery laden lives. The Christian Socialists of that time
pointed at those horrid conditions as unacceptable for a society
and government claiming to be espouse Christian values. The
newspapers, doing their craven lackey bit to defend the cruel
Capitalist status quo (i.e. Landlords who rented the crap
housing to the poor and factory owners that exploited them and
the government that passed laws making it illegal to strike),
mercilessly attacked them. Socialism in all its forms was so
consistently slandered that even the English bedraggled poor
were propaganidized to turn against it. 😞
🤦‍♂️
Sometime before the end of that century a Pope named Leo XIII
published a masterpiece of hypocrisy attacking Socialism and
defending Property and, of course, the "Church". If you have
never had the misfortune to listen to that encyclical screed, I
recommend you do so. I call it a masterpiece because, as with
all effective pieces of propaganda, it is sprinkled with truth.
For example, the Roman Catholic Church certainly is a force for
good (then and now) through its work with hospitals and charity
to the poor. But that is no excuse for claiming that the only
"Christian" recourse for an abused and underpaid worker is to
"accept his lot in life without complaint".
This Pope is a piece of work. The only thing he doesn't do when
talking about Socialism is froth at the mouth!
Out of the other side of his mouth he twists the Scripture to
defend abusive property owners by saying that the "Queen of
Heaven" guided "Mother Church" keeps the rich from greed by
reminding them that they will be judged by God in the afterlife
if they unjustly abuse and exploit the poor who are favored by
Christ in Scripture (see: strongly worded letter HYPOCRISY).
The part that REALLY galled me was the claim by said Pope that
Socialists were "twisting" Holy Scripture when that is EXACTLY
what the Pope was doing every single time he sanctimoneously
quoted Holy Scripture completely out of context. I'll post a
link to that below. Bring your barf bag if you want to listen to
it.
I can see why Socialists sometimes, as you did, make the
argument that it was the Christian Religion that got us to this
sad state of affairs. Heretical forms of Christianity certainly
did contribute, but Religions in the service of TPTB during any
time period in human history do not have a patent on abuse,
exploitation and cruelty. The fact that evil bastards claim that
"God" is with them does not, now, or ever, justify condemning
theism in any form as the "cause" of said abuse, exploitation
and cruelty.
So, what IS the ROOT CAUSE of mankind's inhumanity to mankind?
Marx postulated a new man, that would overcome all that socially
destructive stuff humans engage in WITHOUT God's help because
"God is a myth and Religion is the opiate of the masses promoted
on behalf of Capitalism based GREED by TPTB" (or something like
that - you get the idea). He was half right. TPTB, at least in
western "civilization", hypocrites to the core, promote a
HERETICAL version of Christianity.
As to the fallen nature of mankind that Marx rejected, the
evidence of history argues that we certainly DO have a fallen
nature. The evidence of history argues that the human heart is
wicked beyond any materialistic cause and effect definition.
Christian Scripture states that there is only the OLD man and
only through the power of the Holy Spirit of God can the
wickedness inherent in every single adult human be tamed so that
altruism and cooperation is the rule, and not the exception.
Yes, that is a BIG difference from Marx's optimistic take on
what we are capable of. Marx thought we could fix all our social
problems without recourse to a Supreme Being.
You may wholeheartedly agree with Marx, but you cannot fail to
observe that things are getting worse, not better. Things are
getting worse because GREED, SELFISHNESS and SELF-WORSHIP in the
fallen heart of humans who reject obedience to God is rampant,
not because of Christianity based Religion. If you put much of
the blame on Social Darwinsim, which is the REAL Religion of
TPTB, I would agree.
Sorry for being so long winded, but I cannot help but look
around and see how BAD things are getting. WHO corrupts the
politicians? It sure ain't God fearing Christians! Making them
the whipping boy is fun, but avoids addressing the ROOT of the
problem of human depravity.
C.S. Lewis wrote, and I agree, that it is Pride which has been
the chief cause of misery in every nation and every family since
the world began.
HTML https://www.dacc.edu/assets/pdfs/PCM/merechristianitylewis.pdf<br
/>Other vices may sometimes bring people together: you may find
good fellowship and jokes and friendliness among drunken people
or unchaste people. But Pride always means enmity—it is enmity.
And not only enmity between man and man, but enmity to God." --
Quote from Mere Christianity
HTML https://www.dacc.edu/assets/pdfs/PCM/merechristianitylewis.pdf<br
/>by C. S. Lewis.
So, yeah, I believe that Socialism without the fear of God is
quixotic, which makes me unpleasant company for the "new man"
advocates. Nevertheless, I'll take any port in the ideological
storm that champions the health and welfare of less fortunate
humans in the home and in the workplace. I pray that you will do
the same.
Here's the link to Pope Leo XIII's 28 minute slander filled
attack (notice the date...English Socialism had been all but
crushed by that time but Socialism was gaining advocates all
over the world) on Socialism:
Quod Apostolici Muneris 🙄 Encyclical Letter On Socialism
December 28, 1878
HTML https://ia804600.us.archive.org/20/items/encyclicalspopeleoxiii_2111_librivox/encyclical_02_leoxiii_128kb.mp3
For Socialists who don't have 28 minutes and 24 seconds to waste
on a dead Pope, the first four minutes will be quite enough.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 1