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#Post#: 550--------------------------------------------------
Immigration Debate
DIR By: Shoop
Date: August 19, 2013, 7:06 pm
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A lot of people "challenged" me on this topic, but most seem to
dodge when its time to walk de walk.
But anyway, if anyone is interested Ill start off, I think
immigration should be free, because I think it would be better
if every human could chose where he or she should live.
#Post#: 552--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: XXXandBEER
Date: August 19, 2013, 9:44 pm
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Your trolling right?
If everyone could live wherever, whenever then how would you
regulate anyone? There would be complete anarchy who pays taxes
where etc. It would be a mess committing crimes then leaving the
country would be insanely easy.
#Post#: 554--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: Chakra
Date: August 19, 2013, 11:56 pm
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You honestly think Shoop doesn't believe in documented
immigration, including where people are living/earning their
living?
#Post#: 556--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: drewisfat
Date: August 20, 2013, 2:07 am
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Nah but taxes is a good point especially with the rise of
multinational corporations. Say you got country A which taxes
people at 2% and country B which does 50% tax. If there were no
barriers to immigration at all, all the rich people move to
country A and poor people to country B. This usually doesn't
happen on national scale because of language barriers, people
being attached to their country, and travel expenses. But you
can still observe this being a problem where Chinese
millionaires moving to Singapore, for instance, or giant
companies locate their headquarters on a random caribbean
island.
You can see this issue within the US where you can stay within
the same country but choose a local government that fits what
taxes you want to pay.
There are also assimilation issues if the rate of immigration is
too high. If a large group of a "foreign" nationality moves to
your country at once, they tend to only interact with each
other. A lack of assimilation can cause a lot of social issues
like racism and inequality. In the US where there is a lot of
diversity and a lack of social mobility this problem is huge,
and the result is things like Chinatowns, all mexicans =
farmers, and the entire city of Miami. Even in countries with
greater social mobility (Europe) there are huge problems
assimilating a relatively small amount of amirs.
I personally am not opposed to immigration, I've often thought
about leaving US and I think I disagree with most
anti-immigration laws out there. But I think there are big
potential problems. How you address these?
#Post#: 559--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: Shyamora[SkS]
Date: August 20, 2013, 7:21 am
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'Even in countries with greater social mobility (Europe) there
are huge problems assimilating a relatively small amount of
amirs.' Hehe, not bad.
In my opinion, immigration should be possible but not without
back-ground checking, and proper reasoning as to why somebody is
coming to a different country. Here in the Netherlands we're
stuck with a lot of Marokish, Turkish and Polish people, and
some parts of those are welcome, others are not.
If somebody moves here to work from a different country, that's
alright, but this should be thoroughly regulated. If there's to
many Polish workers in the Netherlands, the Dutch will be out of
jobs. Asides from that, a lot of immigrants from Morocco and
Turkey are here on extended leave to be with family or whatever.
But they are here only because the living conditions are better.
Though I do not mind people to go to a country where the living
conditions are better, I do mind when those people compromise
the well-being of that country.
Over 70% of Dutch Marokish people under 18 have commited a
crime, 15% of which have a criminal record. Easily 50% of all
burglaries, assaults, rapes and other such felonies are caused,
or include immigrants from mostly Morocco and Turkey. That's why
I'd say, sure allow them in, but don't hesitate to put them back
if need be.
Perhaps they should have some sort of probation of a few years
(5?) where if they commit a felony they get sent back?
#Post#: 560--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: CandyManKiller
Date: August 20, 2013, 7:53 am
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Immigrants TOOK MY JOB!
#Post#: 565--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: Shoop
Date: August 20, 2013, 9:12 am
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BEER
Like Chakra says, obviously you still document where people are
living and earning. You pay taxes where you live, this is also
the place where you vote, send your children to school, get
healthcare, etc.
drew
Well you raise a very different point about taxes than BEER, but
I dont think its really relevant to this issue. We are going to
have the problem you describe regardless of free immigration or
not. No country says no to multimillionaires moving in with
their taxmoney, especially not low-tax countries like Monaco.
That is their whole plan, to attract such people regardless of
where they are from. If a normal country opens up for free
immigration wont affect that at all.
I dont know exacly what you mean with choose a local government
that fits you, but as I said you will pay your taxes where you
live.
Like you mention yourself the problems in USA with extreme
segregation can often be traced back to other underlying
problems, such as your lack of social security (which creates
the need of a personal safetynet = organized crime, China Towns,
lack of social mobility, etc). In a society with high social
wellfare you will experience very little of this despite big
immigration.
Other countries have different problems, for instance in many
European countries the history of strong unions is a problem
with too big job-security leading to a labourmarket hard for
immigrants and young people with little job-experience to enter.
But it is important to remember that neither of these problems
are actually caused by immigration, and that both should be
fixed regardless of immigration or not. What you need are laws
that makes it relativly easy (not too easy ofcourse) to fire
people, but on the other hand a very strong social security
network for unemployed people in order to create a dynamic
labour-market while taking care of people in need both for the
sake of itself and to avoid criminality, extreme poverty,
segregation, and to keep demand up for basic goods and services.
Shyamora
I think I adressed parts of your concern aswell, and even though
I am not 100 % familiar with NL:s laws a fair guess is that you
also have relativly high job security which is a problem for
immigration. It also seems to be like the culture in NL seems to
be very prejudgmental towards certain groups of people, which is
a problem itself and a risk becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If more people reason like you "I have nothing against all
Marocans, I just think a lot of them dont behave well", how will
an employer reason when he choses between you (assuming you are
a "ethnic NL") and Marocan? Obviously he will pick you. This is
essentially racism, and even if you think you have good reasons
to make the assumptions you do, it is still exacly how for
instance anti-semitism was justified. There is nothing in
Marocans that makes them more likeley to commit crime, it is
just difficult to come to a new country and culture and it is
just that poverty often leads to a higher rate of criminality.
If you instead focus on what you can change about your country
in order to make it easier for immigrants to find jobs,
intergrate, feel welcome, etc, you will find that immigration is
the best economic boost there is and something that will boost
the labour-market for everyone and reduce the total unemployment
as you get new ideas and a younger population with a lot of
people willing to take the jobs most Europeans are too lazy to
do.
#Post#: 567--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: Night
Date: August 20, 2013, 11:13 am
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Shoop is just brainwashed by utopic ideas such as -> 1.
Immigrants will boost your economy.
2. Will reduce total unemployement.
Shoop you are COMPLETELY blind and ignorant of problems that
immigration causes in various countries. I have never heard in
my life that immigrants boosted economy and reduced total
unemployement, as you were claiming in this topic. And you can
see that many people are talking about immense immigration
problems, and u only bring media brainwashed nonsense as a
arguement. Until u bring real information how immigration
benefited any european country , your theory of free immigration
is DISmissed.
As of my opinion, i think limited, restricted immigration should
be allowed if we are talking about immigration from 3rd world
countries. As for european immigration, i think schengen
area(
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area)
should stay as
it is.
We need more bnet people to post in this topic, because from
what i see, people are against your ideas shoop ^^
#Post#: 568--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: Shoop
Date: August 20, 2013, 11:49 am
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And your arguments are that "BNet people are against my ideas",
and you havent heard of my ideas before?
How about you say something thats relevant to the topic instead,
why do you think immigration should be restricted for instance?
What are the problems you are talking about, and why do you
think immigration is the cause of them?
Also, I dont base anything of what I say on media or what people
say in media. This is my own theory, I dont give a shit what
people "in media" think or what people on BNet think. The only
thing I care about are the arguments.
#Post#: 569--------------------------------------------------
Re: Immigration Debate
DIR By: XXXandBEER
Date: August 20, 2013, 11:59 am
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--- Quote from: Shoop link ---
>
> BEER
> Like Chakra says, obviously you still document where people
are living and earning. You pay taxes where you live, this is
also the place where you vote, send your children to school, get
healthcare, etc.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
How in the world can you document this? People would be allowed
to go anywhere they please without any restrictions. It would be
anarchy what if everyone decided they wanted to live in 1
country? All other countries crumble or?
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