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#Post#: 4572--------------------------------------------------
Correlates of Skill
DIR By: FaceOfMelinda
Date: July 29, 2014, 4:20 pm
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Which map (or mode) do you think correlates most strongly with
skill?
CTF / BD / ROTS etc
It seems to me that BD is by far the biggest correlate of skill
in Revo.
In CTF I can’t beat stay_cool and dark_exodus (I really tried)
whereas in BD I COMPLETELY dominate almost anyone despite not
playing it actively. T
his of course depends on the mode in BD – 2v2 and 6v6 are modes
where skill is less rewarded. But in 4v2 BD – where skill REALLY
shines – people just get DESTROYED by me.
Anyone agree/disagree? Is 4sheep vs 2wolves in BD the best
correlate of skill in Revo and perhaps the best metric of skill
we have overall?
I really think scores in 4v2 BD is the best way to objectively
and quantitatively measure skill in the game. Or at least
categorize tiers.
#Post#: 4573--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: Nmcdo
Date: July 30, 2014, 11:00 am
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ROTS - Out of the question.
CTF - I've played this game possible more than any other (from
what I know). CTF HIGHLY requires a strong knowledge of its
items and farms / tricks in order to play at a high degree, and
EVEN THEN it can be difficult because of the many different
things your opponent could do. Thus a lot of whether the wolf
kills the sheep or the sheep gets past the wolf is based on
there reaction to these moments.
Thus the game requires you to have A STRONG reaction time AND
KNOWLEDGE to succeed. Atleast against a wolf who knows what hes
doing.
Many people see it as luck but there is also a lot of skill
involved if played properly.
Bulldog - Without having these items movements - the game mainly
correlates to control of the map and how well you can control
your wolf. If the wolf is very good the sheep will have trouble
getting by. Therefor as sheep it more requires you to know where
the wolf is going to block and attack, and using these moments
to break through your current mass and continuing down the map
however it may be. As there is usually less space to work with
in BD sheeping isn't as runtag based as it is mass based. 4 V 2
(katma?) would be more of how good a sheep is at tricking and
movement building then how good a wolf is at guarding and
preventing with CONTROL of mirror and main wolf - enough said.
Which has more skill? Depends on how you look at it. (Nothing
against either even though both can be boring at times).
Knowledge - CTF
Micro control - Bulldog for wolf : CTF for sheep.
Reaction time - CTF.
Movement: Bulldog (importance).
Tricking (of either wolf tricking sheep for kill or sheep to get
by) - CTF.
There may be some things I've missed but this should shine some
light on the matter, I do not claim all this to be perfectly
thought out so it may have flaws.
Agree / Disagree with what I've said?
#Post#: 4578--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: drewisfat
Date: July 30, 2014, 11:29 pm
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/agree
CTF - I've only played this a couple times, but the fact that
people who aren't very good at all in ST (Wrda?) are considered
top players makes me think that CTF isn't really much of ST game
at all. I don't have enough experience to really judge the game
for its own merits, but I all the spells/items detract from the
core element of ST, this is why skill in the game seems to have
no correlation (maybe even a negative correlation?) to skill in
revo. Instead it's based on who mastered the new things, which
have almost completely eroded classic ST dynamics.
I think the most glaring problem with CTF is that massing (aka
trying) is discouraged, and leads to a more boring/broken game.
Any game where trying too hard is ruinous and so you have to
start imposing arbitrary limits = BIG sign that you have a real
problem.
BD on the other hand seems more of a condensed form of the
skill/intelligence in ST revo. There is less to it, but this
doesn't mean there's less skill / less to master, because
instead there are fewer boring parts and more constant
wolf/sheep interactions. You're always near a wolf pressuring
them -- or else you're on a break away to scoring. Revo you can
go several minutes without seeing a wolf sometimes.
BD is a much more vigorous testing of positioning and awareness,
and intelligent players quickly rise to the top. It's amazing
how some people may be very good at revo, survival by
themselves, but when placed in an atmosphere where they have to
account for the positions of all their teammates and all the
wolves they suddenly look extremely mediocre. (CMK comes to
mind here).
BD also rewards technical micro skill as well, but in a much
more purposeful way. Small and dynamic jukes are the key to
manipulating the wolves and gaining ground or making a
breakaway. Mediocre players tend to either do predictable set
up trips (where they're basically hoping the wolf won't click on
them after a jump), and repeat their same 2-3 go-to tricks every
time. Most damaging is that even when they pull off these
tricks they're rarely good ideas in the present situation, and
they end up getting past a wolf only to find themselves exposed
and image blocked.
In revo there are essentially four situations where you show off
micro skill, and 3/4 of those situations = are "playing to have
fun" and not "playing to win". A game where those two have a
huge disconnect is a poorly designed game.
1. Zak Syndrome - where you are bored, in a safe position and
you decide to try to mess with the wolf in the middle of a mass
for very small gain. 80% of the time you look good, but 20% of
the time you die for no reason.
2. Switch tricks - or when you put on a RT show in the wide open
arena. The problem here is usually you're not trying to get
back to your ally's farms, and you're not trying to maximize how
long you survive (as this would involve just running to a corner
and tanking). Instead you're playing for fun and to show off --
which is all well and good, but there's a disconnect where this
doesn't match "winning" in the game.
3. Unnecessary Risk - Where you are definitely under pressure
and starting to be isolated, but you decide to make a move on
your own 1v1 against a wolf.
4. Necessary Risk - Same as #3, the difference being the
situation. Sometimes it's wiser to wait for allies or to bend
the wolves out of position. It's only smart "game-wise" to make
a move on your own when there is no reason to think stalling
would benefit you.
In BD most of the time you can aggressively micro against
wolves, and have it be the smart choice at the same time. In
revo the vast majority of the time, the right play is the boring
one.
The result is that people who look good aren't necessarily the
most skilled players, but the ones who show off the most.
#Post#: 4581--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: HaWkys
Date: July 31, 2014, 5:32 am
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rofl at "zak syndrome" funny shit xD
#Post#: 4582--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: XXXandBEER
Date: July 31, 2014, 7:52 am
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2 complaints with BD
First its 100% based off of the wolves reactions if the wolves
play perfect the sheep wont win.
Second there is no reason to try as wolf as you're just
prolonging how much longer till you get sheep.
I would love to see a BD vampish mode. Where it starts lets say
6v2. First round whoever dies is wolf next round as well. So
lets say 1 person dies rest make it. Those people get rewarded
for making it and wolves get punished for not killing sheep and
go again. This time its 5v3 round 2 and so on till you have 1
winning sheep. This both gives incentive to wolf and justifies a
clear winning sheep. Somebody make this gamemode *cough* chakra
plssss
As for CTF its fun but has as much correlation to revo as my
post does to this thread.
#Post#: 4585--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: Chiefhero[sks]
Date: July 31, 2014, 10:17 am
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fallacy = starting with the assumption that certain people are
"gifted"(skilled, intelligent, whatever) while others are
"ungifted", and looking at what gameplay best reflects this
assumpion.
seems impossible to say anything about skill correlation between
games/gamemodes without some nasty assumptions. or unless you
simplify "skill" to include basic shit only, like
reflexes/speed/accuracy.
assuming that borja is the king of runtag, drew is the king of
massing, shoop is the king of wolfing = the actuall ranking of
the 3 players (who wins the most) will depend on gamemode. what
basis is there for saying that any of the gamemodes correlates
more with skill than the others, without assuming the ranking of
the 3 players to begin with? e.g. "shoop is the most gifted
player, borja is the least gifted player".
#Post#: 4597--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: drewisfat
Date: August 2, 2014, 1:47 am
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That's exactly the problem amir with revo. "Best at revo"
depends on what you find impressive. Ideally I would assume
something like best player to have in a 5v5 competitive game,
but we've had so few of those it seems like a weird standard.
Bulldog you don't have this problem, there's a closer tie
between what people perceive as skillful and direct success in
the game.
Which tier people are in becomes extremely evident within an
hour. There are three tier 1 people (you know who they are, or
at least they do ^^) And there's a handful of people in the
second tier, who understand the game but aren't quite as
skilled. Then there's a giant drop off for tier 3 with people
who don't understand the basic concept of the game.
@sidey, I think 3v2 is better than 4v2. Ultimately it depends
on which map, how much gold and the timer, but I think 3v2
yields better results over more settings. What's interesting
though is that there's a steep drop off in 2v2 from 3v2. Once
the sheep don't outnumber the wolves positioning / tactical
understanding don't matter nearly as much, and verse good wolves
it can come down to mostly lucky breaks.
#Post#: 4608--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: RoguexRanger
Date: August 4, 2014, 4:42 pm
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The problem with 4vs2 BD is the vast majority of players aren't
skilled/patient enough to play that mode as wolf. Like Beer
says, you're better off letting the round end quickly as
possible so you can sheep. BD does require a higher level of
skill but not when sheep outnumber wolves that much. It's
similar to Revo in that regard because sheep might not see a
wolf all round. @Sidey I still don't know why you proclaim
yourself the best at BD in those situations when all you did was
avoid the wolf.
#Post#: 4609--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: Chakra
Date: August 4, 2014, 5:16 pm
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Arguments that you shouldn't bother trying as shepherd in BD are
ridiculous. The same argument can be made to just AFK as wolf in
ReVo (which was/still might be a common problem). Wolfing isn't
that bad, and it is much better in BD. But this is an argument
about the merit of the game alone, not about the skill. The
obviously skillful thing to do is to try as shepherd, as giving
free scores will not help you, even if you get to play sheep
more.
Even in 4v2, if the sheep doesn't see a wolf, you're playing too
large of a level or playing was abominably bad wolves. That
being said, 4v2 is a bit too stretched in the favor of the
sheep: any competent sheep team would basically always win. I'd
much rather play 3v3 if I'm playing with other competent
players.
I also think one of the important things was that this thread is
about correlation to skill in ReVo. I don't see how using
completely obscure farms or abilities that don't exist in ReVo
can really correlate to ReVo skill. Skill is a factor in CTF,
I'm sure, but the same skill set? Hardly. Everything in BD,
however, can directly translate to ReVo.
Arguing which game takes the most skill is another topic and a
bit silly to argue, mainly because of how bias most players are.
#Post#: 4610--------------------------------------------------
Re: Correlates of Skill
DIR By: FaceOfMelinda
Date: August 4, 2014, 5:30 pm
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It's easy to imagine metrics such as pick-order versus BD scores
to establish some sort of insight into this. Pick order is ofc
emotional but good players generally are not picked last and
toilet-players are generally not picked first.
@Rogue you still don't seem to understand BD. Opposite to other
sheep games, the skill cap doesn't hit wolves first - it hits
SHEEP. BD ranking is primarily determined by your ability to
play wolf. Retarded 0 IQ horse-brains think BD is about making
a cool trick and running to the end - NO - when you're sheep the
goal is not to reach the end or make a cool trick - it's to draw
as much attention to yourself as you possibly can at all times
to unload your allies.
That's why the runtag crew FAIL miserably at BD. It's not a
runtag-trix game. It's a test of your wolfing ability (i.e.,
micro, mini-map, tracking multiple sheep, map control, etc) and
teamwork skills as sheep.
[member=13]Chakra[/member] 4v2 on small maps vs average euro
runtag kids = you get plenty of kills as wolf. (Modes ofc depend
on the average skill of the players involved)
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