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#Post#: 4473--------------------------------------------------
My New ST Map Ideas
DIR By: drewisfat
Date: July 1, 2014, 10:54 pm
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I have neither the skill nor the willpower to try to make this
map (and make it popular) myself. I'm hoping that some of you
might agree with my suggestions and implement them, even though
I know most people have disagreed with me in the past. A very
long post will follow this up, so much appreciation to anyone
that actually reads all of it.
TLDR version: Make the map smaller while making wolves kill
farms in 4 hits.
This increases technical skill and strategy, making the game
more exciting.
I know the knee jerk reaction is to think this idea is moving in
a boring, backwards direction. But if you think about this for
a little bit, you may agree the result would be quite the
opposite.
The goal is not to make sheep easier or harder, but to make the
game more exciting. An appropriate decrease in map size will
counter the effect of making wolves weaker without making the
game more easy or difficult for one side or the other. It's
similar to what Beer's changes to revo did, in that he expanded
the map (opening up new hills / ramps) while increasing wolf
damage. Except it's ofc the opposite. I'm not upset at you
beer for doing what you did, as the map desperately needed to be
mixed up to keep the game from going stagnant, and I applaud you
for putting the effort into changing it. I just hope you
approach my recommendation with an open mind, as you're the only
one who seems interested in making new maps.
The most boring part of being a sheep is massing endlessly, with
zero contact with the wolves. As a wolf the most boring part is
looking at an insanely big mass of farms and having no clue
where to begin, so people afk and blame teammates. A smaller
map right off the bat solves both of these problems.
It also increases what should be the exciting parts of sheeping
and wolfing. As a sheep you will be closer to wolves at all
time, and to your teammates, and bridging them will be more
important. As a wolf no sheep is insanely secure or far away.
With 2 hit farm and a giant mass, it's in the sheep's best
interest to cornermass. We condemn people who do this as noob,
when it's a completely rational approach. Harassing wolves is
more dangerous and less effective when they kill farms in two
hits. It's a much better idea for the sheep to just run away
and the wolves to just chase, and I think this is a much more
boring dynamic than it was in the past.
Wolf items are also much more useful and strategic when they are
at 4 hit farm kills.
- STR pot and beam are near useless in today's sheep tag. Don't
tell me that I'm a noob and don't know how to use them, and that
they can be used very well. I want this to be the case -- but
it's simply not a big deal to use a str pot to kill a farm in 1
hit instead of 2, when there's a huge number of farms anyways.
If you kill farms at 4 hits, and there's less farm, suddenly a
case can be made for str pot / beam to strategically cut off
sheep. This case largely exists only in theory now, and 95% of
str pots are used to try to snipe a sheep in combination with a
golem.
- Golems are similarly not as important as they once were. They
haven't suffered in popularity at all, but that's because ALL
OTHER ITEMS SUCK in today's ST. It's an easy exercise to see
why golems become more important in a 4 hit farm kill scenario.
Consider how useless they are if you kill farms in 1 hit, and
extrapolate backwards.
- Claws/cloaks/gloves are more important. When you start at 2
hits, there's only so much that damage items can do. One claw
can get you to 2 hit aura'd farms, and several claws can you get
to 1 hit normal farms. That's about it, and in most games you
won't even consider going 1 hit, as it takes a big investment
and the game will likely be over by then (in say 3v5s). At four
hits there's simply more room to make choices that have
consequences. I'd recommend something like 60g to get to 3 hits
( I don't expect most of the game to be at 4 hits just the
beginning), and like 170g to get to two hits.
Better items allow wolf technical skill to shine, and make
interactions between sheep and wolves more interesting for both
parties. And there will be more of these interactions because
the map is smaller. Harassing and bridging will be more
important and will allow better sheep skill to shine.
On a different note, a smaller map is more fitting for games
with fewer players. And we do have less full games now then
ever before. 3v4 should not be taboo, and on this map it would
not be. The ratio of sheep/wolf would increase slightly without
slanting the game to make sheeping easy. People that love only
sheeping should be happy that they sheep more often, and people
that appreciate wolfing can look forward to more balanced game.
I predict a major objection to this will come from "runtaggers"
who will see a smaller map as less room to run. I would point
you to the success of bulldog to see why this is not the case.
Bulldog is basically built around run tag, and yet it takes
place in very small maps. What it will do is diminish
"freestyling rt", where you're run tagging with no farms near
you. This isn't the only way to RT, but it's what most people
may think of. I've always felt run tag was a poor term, for
what people mean by exciting and micro/trick oriented sheep play
-- which is something I aim to increase in this map not
decrease. Again I point to the success of bulldog in this
arena. Already current revo isn't meant for freestyling, as
usually you're filling up the map with farms / blocking off
ramps. The freestyling RT people want is in -switch revo, and
you could still play that. This wouldn't be a replacement for
it, in the same way revo "mass" games don't exclude you from
playing -switch.
So does anyone agree with my ramble ??? ;D ???
#Post#: 4475--------------------------------------------------
Re: My New ST Map Ideas
DIR By: T_P_T
Date: July 2, 2014, 6:32 am
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5/5 would bang ! Like seriously that's what this community needs
right now ! ST is so boring when the map is so huge.
#Post#: 4477--------------------------------------------------
Re: My New ST Map Ideas
DIR By: Nmcdo
Date: July 2, 2014, 10:07 am
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First I have to say, nice thread and good ideas drew, I honestly
wish I saw you playing more (I want to see all old legends play
at least once).
Here are some of my reflections on your whole post ( I read the
whole thing ^^) "-" = my response.
Making the map smaller - Good idea, I like it although the only
thing for me is I would like to keep the interesting (some)
terrain revo had or something.
4 hit farms - I think the only way people would buy into this if
you made it like this : 3 hit farms: decent access and worth it,
2 hit slightly harder to get but would make it worth as a small
map. 1 hit = make hard like 380 gold (In all the claws leading
up) to get.
Harassing - I have always been a fan of this, even if its not so
helpful as it was in the past I use it quite a bit, I think if
we had a small map it would be more important therefor more fun
(as harassing on your own can be risky, ESPECIALLY IF YOU LAG).
Beam / STR pot - Well here's the main difference between the
beam and STR pot. For one beam you can just get about 3 STR
pots. With a beam you can either kill 2 or 3 farms depending on
how you use it (angle) and STR pot is one farm. Therefor Beam
allows you to be able to rush forward without having to hit each
individual farm (speed advantage) while STR's are cheaper and
can be used to force a sheep to stay in isolation as its ally
just made a upg to go through, STr it and its still trapped.
Another thing is beams because of the distance they cover are
GREAT way for PRO wolves to skill shot sheep, but the wolf
misses it is quite frankly a gamble, and waste of gold. Although
even though sometimes it can be used to keep a iso going for a
greater cost.
Golems - Golems would be much better because you wouldn't have
to send them across a huge map just to get to new iso's. While
holding sides with them would be more skilled and easier (MAKES
IT HARDER FOR SHEEP, IMPORTANT!!)
Ive always been a fan of higher level wolfing. But some people
would try to reject it because they wouldn't know how to play
properly in this new map.
Therefor it is important they play it several times and see A
WOLF that knows what he is doing. (This is needed for lower
level players).
2 Things that need to be mentioned - Endurance and the scythe.
With the changes of the map you said this items would both
become insanely important. Endurance as you would be able to be
the difference between holding a iso (speed) and not. While the
scythe has huge profit, therefor you could get 3 hit, then a
scythe and WHILE ISOLATING be upgrading yourself and allies.
I think run tag would be fine just different.
For the most part I agree.
I would like to ask beer if he would make this map and let me
AND him try it out (test it) and see how it would play out.
Thanks for the post drew btw, and I hope to see you more often
yo. Thanks ~!~
#Post#: 4478--------------------------------------------------
Re: My New ST Map Ideas
DIR By: XXXandBEER
Date: July 2, 2014, 11:13 am
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I feel as though this already exists. Survival bulldog but with
a few modifications. 2 questions for you drew what should i do
with other farms upgrade, aura, strong, etc. And what should I
do with the pen I feel saving would be changed drastically with
these changes. I lied 3 questions exactly how small of a map are
we talking in st terms (grid distance of farms).
I may actually do this if I find the time but would like answers
to thee questions
#Post#: 4479--------------------------------------------------
Re: My New ST Map Ideas
DIR By: glow
Date: July 2, 2014, 11:53 am
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RT is a different game and should be treated as such.
These ideas are ideal for massing! I hope to see a map based on
this, Drew!
#Post#: 4480--------------------------------------------------
Re: My New ST Map Ideas
DIR By: HaWkys
Date: July 2, 2014, 2:14 pm
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I agree with most of the things you are saying, but the fact of
the matter is the terrain on this new map will not be accepted.
The old people that sit and play st do not like change.
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