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#Post#: 175--------------------------------------------------
5e Spell casting
By: Rojosama Date: January 18, 2017, 2:07 pm
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Until now I had not really looked at casting in 5e and was
assuming it was close to Pathfinder. Things I noticed -
Sorcerers and wizard both get the same spell progression and
number of spell slots.
Each casting class only gets 1 spell slot for 6th thru 9th level
magic.
Do the extra features of these classes make up for the lack of
higher level spell slots?
I always pictured Sorcerers as having more spell slots, but less
spells known while wizards have the versatility of knowing all
the spells, but being able to cast less per day.
Thoughts?
#Post#: 176--------------------------------------------------
Re: 5e Spell casting
By: Azryal Date: January 19, 2017, 6:53 am
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Tl;Dr. 9th level magic isn't as strong as it was in Pathfinder,
which isn't as strong as it was in 2nd, which isn't as...you get
it.
So I'm having difficulty on...just where to start with this...so
I guess I'll just work backwards through your post?
"I always pictured Sorcerers as having more spell slots, but
less spells known while wizards have the versatility of knowing
all the spells, but being able to cast less per day."
Completely true, in Pathfinder, but we aren't playing
Pathfinder. Sorcerers seem to have been re imagined as the
premier “blaster” of the flock (along side Warlocks). And to be
perfectly honest, I don't really know what they intend Wizards
to be.
It should be mentioned, as you said, a big advantage to being a
Wizard is, being able to know ALL the spells. But in part
because this edition is relatively new, and in part because of
what seems to be an attempt to cut down on spell bloat by the
developers (more on this later) there just aren't as many spells
to be known this time around, diminishing the value of this
advantage.
"Do the extra features of these classes make up for the lack of
higher level spell slots?"
In...what regard...what? I assume you mean in comparison
to...Pathfinder? 4th edition? 3.5? Exalted? World of
Warcraft? Going to assume Pathfinder. Sorcerers got
kinda...idiot proofed I guess would be a really harsh way of
putting it. If you take the Dragon Blooded version, you
basically get just a package deal on all the feats you would
normally take as a Sorcerer, meta magic and some toughness
boosting stuff, just without the option to take something else.
But...you could have gotten that stuff anyways...so no it wasn't
“worth it” as you put it. Its fare to call this a nerf.
For Wizards it's much the same, they do get some pretty cool
stuff in their little specialty trees. Notably I believe the
Illusionist get some really awesome things. But, given the
choice, I would rather have more 9th level slots, or would I?
This question leads to...
"Each casting class only gets 1 spell slot for 6th thru 9th
level magic."
How to answer this, or is it even possible, in a satisfactory
way…
So I mentioned before how it appears the developers wanted to
cut down on the total number of spells, at least temporarily.
We've discussed it at table before, but I'll mention it here, in
short, to make sure we're on the same page. Most high level
spells that have a comparable low level version, seem to have
been axed, and the low level version just given the option to be
prepared as a higher level, with a comparable increase in power,
of course.
While definitely trimming down on book real estate, this
completely ignores the extremely limited high level spell slots
issue, but then your options from those spell tiers aren't
exactly mind blowing either. 9th level Wizard magic used to have
beauties like Time Stop and Create DemiPlane (Greater). Now you
get...Foresight. I mean getting advantage on all d20 rolls for
a minutes is pretty nice, but ask yourself, is it really 9th
level magic nice? We are getting close to achieving that in our
party (in combat) already, and that's just through half
competent decision making and team work. Out of combat you say?
Guidance is a cantrip…
I know, that last bit especially, was pretty rambly, and I do
apologize, but hopefully you get the idea.
I infer from your post that you don't like what happened to
Wizards and Sorcerers this edition? Suffice to say theirs no
point in denying it, Wizards especially, got nerfed, hard! But
then they've been almost universally viewed as the Lord-Gods of
every edition prior to this one. Subjective? Yes. But...well
if you want to argue this, we can do that else where, back on
subject…
Lets just say that maybe Wizards (and Sorcerers) needed a nerf,
and some of your trepidation is just how massive that nerf
needed to be, I say give it a shot at least before anyone freaks
out too much. And even then lets think about this, how often to
we REALLY even get our characters to a level where 6th-9th level
magic even matter?
I can think of like...three times, ever, one of those ended
after level 13, one of those was a “short” campaign where sure
we got to 20th level, but we were going up like 5 levels a
session…. And the last, well, we started at level 10, and ended
at level 14 (I think).
I feel like I'm missing something...
To close off, our Wizard Overlords are dead, all hail our Lore
College Bard Overlords!
#Post#: 177--------------------------------------------------
Re: 5e Spell casting
By: Rojosama Date: January 19, 2017, 9:09 am
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I was more curious how other people viewed the changes to high
level casting as 'pure' casters went from gods late game to meh.
Note purely is spell slots/per day but also in the loss of
powerful feeling spells. I realize that it won't traditionally
have any effect on our games as we do not get that high, but as
a whole picture.
As a note wizards still get Time Stop and Wish (which could
create a demi-plane I would guess).
This could be a design consideration as I imagine most games do
not make it to high level play. I do not mean to give off the
intention of freaking out in the least as this is still our
first set of games in the system and none of which has made it
to a level where this issue is even an issue.
Over all I was indeed comparing them to Pathfinder, but I was
also comparing others to their Pathfinder equals. It seems over
all that each class, with some exceptions (looking at you
druid), got to some degree a rework with the aim of improving
them overall. Compare a rogue to a rogue or bard to a bard and
there are definite gains there. But wizard to wizard appears, to
me at least, a new loss in utility and power.
Now I will be the first to point out that I am a terrible
wizard, and I rarely play them, so my view and opinions could be
very wrong.
#Post#: 178--------------------------------------------------
Re: 5e Spell casting
By: Azryal Date: January 19, 2017, 3:32 pm
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I was more curious how other people viewed the changes to high
level casting as 'pure' casters went from gods late game to meh.
I know its kind of viewed as a copout answer, but personally I
am conflicted on this. I feel its healthy for the game in the
long run, but I've also kind of viewed it as part of the “Wizard
Package” (if you will) that they eventually attain near god-like
power.
Also, how important is balance, really? As long as everyone is
having fun? I get off topic again…
I guess I don't like it, casters not being cool at high levels
that is. But here's a question I think might be much more
pertinent then how do classes compare to their Pathfinder
counterparts. How do the other classes fare at the high levels
in comparison to Wizards? Maybe after 12th level everyone gets
screwed?
#Post#: 179--------------------------------------------------
Re: 5e Spell casting
By: DrDevice Date: January 28, 2017, 3:37 pm
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Foresight.
9th level spell
Casting time 1 minute
Duration 8 hours
Touch a willing creature and it gains the ability to see into
its immediate future. Advantage on all attacks, checks, and
saves, all opponents gain disadvantage on attack rolls against
the target. Target cannot be surprised. Spell ends if you cast
it again.
Combine this with Divination wizard and you get an 8th level
spell back after casting it.
Meteor swarm
9th level
Casting time 1 action
Range 1 mile
Area 4 different 40ft radius blasts
Dex save for half or take 20d6 fire and 20d6 bludgeoning.
Creatures and objects cannot be affected by more than one blast.
(average per creature hit 148, 74 if they are imune to one
effect)
Evocation wizards able to cast this add there intelligence
modifier to all damage spells as well as can maximize the damage
on all spells lower than 5th level (1d12/spell level + 1d12 for
every use after the first in necrotic damage against the caster
till the completion of a long rest).
Power word kill does kind of suck on its own, but if combined
with the fighters ability to see hit points then you can Insta
jib anything you drop to 100hp, no save.
I think those are epic, but I don't usually play wizards nor do
i have any experience with high level games.
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