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#Post#: 254--------------------------------------------------
Implosion Change
By: Genesis Date: June 3, 2019, 11:23 am
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* DM -> Death Magic
Background
Ten years ago we had a slew of problems with certain builds
dominating the PvP scene. Typically it boiled down to 4 key
builds - arcane caster PM, tank PM RDD, cleric RDD, and DC
cleric. If you played one of these you were generally only
beatable by someone of a precise counter-build being present and
capable of killing you.
What we did to address this was introduce a range of measures to
try and allow other classes to thrive - sneaks, for example,
were nigh unplayable. RDD had a heal debuff applied so that they
could not eternally tank damage and just heal it; PMs had the
heal debuff applied along the same lines; and all of these
classes had certain key spells nixed - Greater Sanctuary, for
example.
One of these changes was to add Immunity to Death magic as a
factor in Implosion. See 'Mechanics' below for a breakdown of
how this decision came to be.
Mechanics
The SRD defines the spell as ->
HTML http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm.
The NWN definition is here ->
HTML https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Implosion
The maximum DC for Implosion is 10 (base) + 9 (spell level) +
(up to) 6 (spell focii) + (up to) 17 (wisdom bonus at 44 WIS) =
42. With the +3 modifier this would be 45. Typical Fortitude
saves are in the low 40's.
For comparison, The maximum for Wail of the Banshee would be
sorceror cast and I believe this caps out at 40 or 41. I will do
some testing to verify this number.
There is no reference to a +3 modifier, nor can anyone explain
why it exists other than a NWN developer put it in. There are no
references to the 'why' in NWN documentation or source material.
The spell is a small size AoE affecting everything 3.33m from
the point of impact.
The tactic for Implosion is to find as large a group as
possible, chain cast then, and fish for 1 rolls. If targeting a
group of 3, and usually getting at least 2 casts off before the
targets can run out of cluster range, that gave a 30% chance of
getting an instant kill.
Under our crafting system, a cleric can get 14 level 9 spells.
The nearest comparative spell is the arcane Wail of the Banshee.
That has to overcome 2 gates - Fortitude Save and Immunity to
Death Magic. Default Implosion has the Fortitude save only.
It is also worth noting the default Implosion can instantly kill
Undead and most of our endgame content as it presently stands.
These creatures will need to be re-looked at and re-engineered
as appropriate. This may not be a large task, when we look at
it, but people should be aware it is not just a case of altering
the spell script itself. This may take time and have
ramifications for other spells in the Evocation line. I'm
relatively sure we can just make them immune to Implosion, but
NWN tends to be quirky about sometimes seemingly simple things.
Might require a 2da poke... which is always fun :P
Options
The options, in varying combinations, boil down to:
[list]
[li]keep it as per the default;[/li]
[li]add death magic immunity;[/li]
[li]remove the +3 caster DC;[/li]
[li]add death magic immunity and remove the +3 caster DC.[/li]
[/list]
Discussion
These are the spell mechanics as they are. This vote is not
about comparing to other spells or classes; it is about
considering the spell on its merits as a spell in a level 30
setting.
As always, keep it polite and level headed. People will agree
and disagree, but by the end of it we should have a community
driven answer.
Edit : Updated as per
HTML https://sacredkingdoms.createaforum.com/polls/implosion-change/msg272/#msg272
#Post#: 255--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: Genesis Date: June 3, 2019, 11:24 am
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My player vote be to have the default spell but remove the +3
caster DC. It's not needed, it's not warranted, and there is no
explanation for its existence.
#Post#: 257--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: Pheroth Date: June 3, 2019, 12:29 pm
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Your post, is very much hyperbolic, and also, inaccurate Gen.
You might want to clarify things much more in the future.
First, to reach 14 Level 9 spells the cleric would need to
sacrifice all survivability to do so. This is not something they
are likely to do. Living, is what they'll want to do. So in
reality, the cleric, may have maybe 3 level 9 spells, and that's
if they go with a staff. Which, I've only seen one cleric do.
Furthermore, your DC is again, assuming the cleric opts for no
survivability, and I'm also pretty sure the calculation is off.
Your DC calculation is based on if someone goes straight cleric
and min maxes. Clerics unlike mages have more than one stat to
worry about. They need to have Charisma, they need to have
strength to even weild their full plate, 12 dex to get the +1 AC
because they can't cast cat's grace, and unless they just want
two skill points per level they need at least 12 Int. So, my
full level 30 cleric with focuses in Evocation, only get's a DC
of 41. Not 43. Not 46. 41. Wizards and other caster classes are
easier to min max with.
My cleric, has only 36 Wisdom, he isn't able to obtain 46, he
would never be able to obtain 46 Wisdom. Most clerics won't,
unless again, they sacrifice ALL SURVIVABILITY.
Most clerics will start with 16 or 17 Wisdom due to the other
stats needed, and even then, can get only a max of 18 Wisdom.
They can then get an additional 7 from leveling, to make it 25,
then another 5 if they just forgo all survivability and epic
spells, and epic spell penetration to make it 30, and then with
gear it tops out at 42. Not 46 as you claim.
Additionally, you claim there's no mention of the +3 DC, however
in your second link, it is indeed noted: "This spell's DC is
increased by +3. Some players consider this a bug, but it seems
clear from the spell script that it is an intentional change."
An intention change by Bioware, and likely in regards to balance
or to bring the DC more in line with other spells, and possibly
as a gimme to clerics because....
Implosion is one of only two damage spells they can somewhat
rely on to do damage. Which means yes, a full level 30 cleric
has only two spells they can cast to try to kill someone. Those
being Implosion, which in most cases is fishing for ones, but
hey, the +3 some times help for those who haven't gotten end
game gear yet. And the other is Blade Barrier, which requires
the target to stand in place to be most effective, and also that
the target doesn't have improved evasion which makes it have no
effect most of the time. Oh, and let's not forget, IMPLOSION IS
THE ONLY LEVEL 9 SPELL WORTH TAKING NONE OF THE OTHERS ARE GOOD
OR VIABLE ALTERNATIVES. Unlike Mages who have a cadre of level 9
spells to take and use.
As a full cleric, your survivability isn't even that great. In
full legendary you top out at /63 AC/. Which makes you lunch for
everyone. So by removing the three DC, you essentially transform
clerics into a thirty second heal bot that will get stabbed in
the face almost immediately and they won't be able to do
anything about it especially with everyone spamming knockdown.
Let's take a look at mages though. Mages have the following for
their offense: Mordenkainens Disjunction, Fire Brand, IGMS,
ILMS, Ice Storm, Damage Shields, Horrid Wilting, Time stop, all
the Bigbies that everyone say need to be nerfed, Wail of the
Banshee, Finger of Death, the new shape change, Greath
Thunderclap.
Also for defense Mages have: Epic Warding for Protection, Shadow
Shield, Mind Blank, Lesser Mind Blank and Greater Spell Mantle.
Mages are by and large the most complained about class, yet it
is the one you never touch with the balancing stick despite the
numerous calls to do so.
TL;DR Keep Implosion as Default and try taking the balancing
stick to the class that actually needs it, Wizards and Sorcs.
#Post#: 258--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: Xav Date: June 3, 2019, 12:50 pm
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I am for a fort save only (death ward does nothing) as far as
the save... I'm torn. It's easy to get 40+ for save. So you're
trolling for 1's most of the time. So I would be for giving them
a slight buff to the DC. At the same time 40+ fort save will be
for full geared chars, and anyone that doesn't have all the +10
gems or legendary gear may find it quite oppressive. So I'm
going to vote no +3 to the DC. It's really just dependent on how
much of an issue it causes. If the +3 doesn't seem to make it
overpowering then add it. If we start imploding paladins with
legendary gear then I'd look to see the +3 disappear.
#Post#: 259--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: Pheroth Date: June 3, 2019, 12:52 pm
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You should vote for default then, because it doesn't kill people
that often. And the people it does kill are those who opted for
more spell slots as opposed to surviability. So trade offs.
#Post#: 263--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: iamthemadotaku Date: June 3, 2019, 1:10 pm
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I will vote with pheroth.
#Post#: 265--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: ToraTora Date: June 3, 2019, 2:08 pm
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It is a vortex of destruction, not a literal black hole.
That being said, I'd say remove being blocked by Deathward but
make it a 2 save spell like Weird. Reflex to get the hell out
of the way, then fort save or die. Maybe damage on successful
fort saves.
#Post#: 267--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: Genesis Date: June 3, 2019, 2:34 pm
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An edit has been made to the original post to reflect that 44
WIS is the maximum achievable with ESF Evocation, 46 without.
A poll and debate around the Bigby suite is coming - I am
wanting to address the changes we have now rather than future
changes, at this time. Players have asked me about it, and it is
a fair request and debate to have. Arcane spells were voted
strongly for in the last vote, but lost out to rogue areas. As a
means to address this, I'll do the rogue areas, get those right
whilst we have the key discussions, and then do Arcane spells.
#Post#: 269--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: Pheroth Date: June 3, 2019, 4:00 pm
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And how exactly do you get to 44 Wisdom because 46 wisdom is
impossible with or without ESF Evocation. 46 is straight out
impossible. Would you like to go into detail? And what you are
sacrificing to get to such? Like Armor skin, Epic Spells,
survivability on the whole. You're again, taking a hyperbolic
stance with this and noone in their right mind would sacrifice
actually being able to live a bit longer just for one or two
more DC.
And again, there is balance in regards to mages and clerics.
Clerics have two spells that are useful offensively at 30th
level. Implosion is one of them. Both of the two spells,
including implosion in them, require saves, and one can be
outright negated by a feat. So neither is sure. Whereas Mages,
which should be in this discussion have a whole arsenal of
spells at their fingertips that can be unleashed on people.
In order to get to 18 Wisdom at start you would need to
sacrifice points you need elsewhere. In addition to that you are
giving up Epic Spell Penetration, Armor Skin, at least two epic
spells, and epic skill focus SpellCraft, which you need to at
least get one of the two epic spells you are likely to take. And
even then you are two wisdom shy of reaching 46 wisdom, so
explain to me how you get to 46 wisdom, which is plainly not
achievesable.
#Post#: 270--------------------------------------------------
Re: Implosion Change
By: Umonk Date: June 3, 2019, 6:34 pm
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The new shape change is a separate thing and honestly wasn't
something that I cared to be in a wizard's arsenal but I don't
know why pure wizard would benefit from this mechanically unless
design mistakes were made.
Most of the crying about wizards has been dumb and unwarranted.
Someone's undergeared character getting whooped isn't a concern.
I laughed when I saw Ice Storm. Are mages just going to throw
pebbles at full ab classes that can crit them 200+ to death or
just instantly?
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