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#Post#: 3058--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: Cliff Ball Date: December 16, 2010, 1:51 pm
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[font=Bookman Old Style]
Thom
According to the Genetic texts, an individual bred back to the
originals 7 generations or more, can for all practical purposes
be considered as pure as the line you crossed into, all things
being equal. Breeds like cattle, dogs, cats etc. all have had to
deal with this issue when other breeds are outcrossed for
colors, coats, more beef, more wool, longer horns, shorter
horns.....you name it. Most breeds appear to be in a state of
continual improvement by importing desired genes through
outcrossing. And of course the breed purity debate goes on in
most all circles with some favoring the outcrossing and some
opposing it. Same with pigoens. One of the catch phrases[/font]
tossed around goes something like this, Genetic purity can be
achieved with after 7 generations, as long as it "LOOKS like and
ACTS like" the original strain and breeds true. I suppose in
some cases it could take even longer.
In this case, you are probably breeding "BEST TO BEST" between
two different strains of Rollers, not two different breeds of
pigeons. The F-1 cross is sometimes considered a " battle
Cross" and maybe the best you can do. The tendencty is for guys
to get all excited when the cross seems to work in the first
generation.The real test comes in the ability of the F-1
generation to breed true or to continue the desired positive
trait without losing other desirted traits in the process.
Again, by merely crossing two different families rather than two
different breeds, the gene pool is more homogeneous, so your
chances of oddballs are reduced and your chances of getting what
you want are improved.The Homer guys talk of breeding two
strains almost to degeneration but the cross's are strengthened
by hybrid vigor. The theories are interesting.
Paul F has had very good results with his Ruby cross's X Mort.
Check with Paul for the particulars on his success. Good luck
with your project.
Cliff
#Post#: 3059--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: oldfart Date: December 16, 2010, 2:33 pm
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Gentlemen, Thank you!
Shawn, Cliff, I have experienced the Jacconettes for one
breeding season only but I really appreciate the work Mr. Bill
Roy has put into them. Tony's Ruby's manage very simular as the
Jacconettes and I think the two strains would compliment each
other. I will maintain both as origanals by breeding them as
stand alone strains while attempting to blend them in a seperate
experiment.
Thank you both for your imput! :)
Take care my friends
Thom
#Post#: 3060--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: Johnnie Williams Date: December 16, 2010, 3:57 pm
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HI Thom, Cliff and Ty I'm trying a Turner/ Cliff Ball line cross
with Mehdi Arzaghi Pensom line this year Cock is a Turner/Cook
cross of Jay Yandle 03-196 and Daughter 05-295 Andaluisan Saddle
Black W/Fand Hen Mehdi Silver Grizzle W/F both are 25 Ft.
frequent and fast- can hardly wait.
#Post#: 3061--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: Cliff Ball Date: December 16, 2010, 4:44 pm
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Thom,
You are doing what nearly every roller man on the planet has
been doing for decades in an effort to establish his own family
and to create the perfect roller. Who knows. You might get
lucky. Some have been fairly successful at it. I'm sorta going
the other way and elimnating most of the crossed families to get
back to the straight Turner lines where I am finding the best
performance. But I, too, still have a couple side projects
crossing some families just for fun. But that's not where my
bread and butter is!
Cliff
#Post#: 3062--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: Cliff Ball Date: December 16, 2010, 5:10 pm
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Johnnie,
196, a Henry Cook/Turner cross, flew in Jay Yandle's kit the
year he won the 11-bird National Championship and was selected
by Ron Duncan, the finals judge, as the best bird in the kit. I
lost him last winter, unfortunately. 295 flew in my A-team for
two years and was off of the first pair of birds that Turner
ever gave me. I still have the cock that bred her, but the hen
died. 295 has bred many fine birds for me, back on her father,
just ask, Ty. He's got a few in his stock loft off her also. Jay
has had good luck with the Cook crosses with the Turners. I have
been less successful with it, but still have a few in my A-kits.
My larger percentages are coming from line-bred straight Turner
stuff, where I have 7 cocks throwing over 50% A-team material
over the last two years, 7 cocks throwing 35%-50%, 8 throwing
25%-35%, and 6 throwing 10%-25%. 14 hens are throwing over 50%,
7 are throwing 35%-50%, 5 throwing 25%-35%, and 5 throwing
10%-25%. All of these birds have flown in the competitions 2-4
years. 2010 was my best year yet and every year the lines get
tighter and the percentages seem to improve, so I am pleased
with the results of the direction of my program. I took the
advice of World Cup Champion Joe Bob Stuka, who has also blended
several families with the Turners in his quest for perfection.
His biggest regret in his career as a roller man, he told me, is
that he did not keep a line of straight Turner stuff to go back
to and it has cost him dearly. Play with projects on the side,
but keep your main family straight and tight!
Cliff
#Post#: 3063--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: Ty Coleman Date: December 16, 2010, 5:36 pm
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One of my main stock hens is direct off of 302 and 295. They
both pedigree back to 007.
When I decided to go pure with my birds I sent two very nice
Cock birds to Darrin Stone, 07-455 and 07-666. They are bred the
same way as your bird 196 and 295 and are producing well for
him.
#Post#: 3064--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: oldfart Date: December 16, 2010, 5:45 pm
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Johnnie, It is my opinion that next year is what drives our love
for the roller pigeon. Dreaming of breeding plans keep us bright
and hopeful, but when we succeed, the dream it's never enough!
;D We reset our dream and start over again. Never boring our
hobby, often challenging, some times rewarding, always
comforting. :)
Cliff, We are from the same generation so you will understand
when I say, "Toy cars did not come with motors" I have tried to
make something from nothing most of my life. Adding this,
cutting off that and almost always with limited success. Making
something from parts others threw away was not a bad way, but
for the first time nothing is broken, nothing bent, nothing
falling off. I have two very well thought out equally
constructed starting points. Ruby/Jacconette and both are great,
will they breed a loft full of champions? I don't know but I'm
going to try! :) I'm also not silly enough to place all of my
eggs in a single basket! :D
Take care my friends
Thom
#Post#: 3070--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: JEFF WILSON Date: December 16, 2010, 10:07 pm
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cliff sounds like you are getting vert good 0/0 on your birds i
wouldn't change a thing .just like scott said that is not done
over night it takes time i hope iam on the right road iam
learning my birds better every breeding season.
#Post#: 3071--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: JEFF WILSON Date: December 16, 2010, 10:10 pm
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Tom sounds like you have plan it's worth a try you might make
somthing great.
#Post#: 3075--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not exactly line breeding, not exactly inbreeding
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: December 17, 2010, 5:06 pm
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Thom .. I think you will find that in the long run you will find
these birds very much take fixing here and there in the way of
balancing your matings .. how much what needs fixing is the
question.. and once you fix one thing another pops up.. then to
make it interesting by the nature of the breed we are breeding
towards a fault... honestly I find nothing easy where these
birds are concerned.. but for me that is what makes it
interesting.
Scott
[quote author=oldfart link=topic=85.msg3064#msg3064
date=1292543100]
Johnnie, It is my opinion that next year is what drives our love
for the roller pigeon. Dreaming of breeding plans keep us bright
and hopeful, but when we succeed, the dream it's never enough!
;D We reset our dream and start over again. Never boring our
hobby, often challenging, some times rewarding, always
comforting. :)
Cliff, We are from the same generation so you will understand
when I say, "Toy cars did not come with motors" I have tried to
make something from nothing most of my life. Adding this,
cutting off that and almost always with limited success. Making
something from parts others threw away was not a bad way, but
for the first time nothing is broken, nothing bent, nothing
falling off. I have two very well thought out equally
constructed starting points. Ruby/Jacconette and both are great,
will they breed a loft full of champions? I don't know but I'm
going to try! :) I'm also not silly enough to place all of my
eggs in a single basket! :D
Take care my friends
Thom
[/quote]
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