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#Post#: 10407--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: joeb
Date: December 25, 2011, 8:00 am
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Arif,
Levi and Quinn both state the 3 basic colors are red, blue and
brown in order of dominance. I think you might want to rethink
your statement that blue is not a base color. Black is nothing
more than blue with spread applied.
Have a great day, 8)
Joe B
#Post#: 10408--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: mumtaztic
Date: December 25, 2011, 8:30 am
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If you would like to continue to read the genetic books written
in 40 years ago, and still believe what has been written, you
are absolutely right. If you want to stay up-to-date with
genetics that involves biochemistry, take my word for it that
the only base is black. These guys had no idea about DNA or
biochemistry. It is only last 10 years that we started to
understand how genes look like and started to barely understand
the biochemistry of the pigments produced in the feathers.
Believe what you wish.
By the way only the ash-red is dominant to blue/black wild
type. The other red produced by same chemicals known as
recessive red is not dominant to blue/black wild-type.
You have a great day also.
#Post#: 10409--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: December 25, 2011, 9:57 am
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Hi Arif, thanks for adding your comments on this thread. I think
you realize that with your comments, you pretty much are
trashing the conventional wisdom which Joe mentioned here:
--- Quote from: joeb link ---
> Arif, Levi and Quinn both state the 3 basic colors are red,
blue and brown in order of dominance. I think you might want to
rethink your statement that blue is not a base color. Black is
nothing more than blue with spread applied...Joe B
--- End Quote ---
Joe said what he did in response to this:
--- Quote from: mumtaztic link ---
> [font=calibri]2y4life,[/font][font=calibri]Well you are
partially correct. There is no blue pigment or blue gene in
pigeon genetics. It is also misleading to think that there are 3
so called base colors. Pigeons are able to produce 3 pigments in
their feathers and they are red, black and brown. However, only
base is the black which is the color of our wild-type (blue bar)
standard...[/font]
--- End Quote ---
Then you said to Joe, the following:
--- Quote from: mumtaztic link ---
> [font=calibri]If you would like to continue to read the
genetic books written in 40 years ago, and still believe what
has been written, you are absolutely right. If you want to stay
up-to-date with genetics that involves biochemistry, take my
word for it that the only base is black. These guys had no idea
about DNA or biochemistry. It is only last 10 years that we
started to understand how genes look like and started to barely
understand the biochemistry of the pigments produced in the
feathers. Believe what you wish.[/font][font=calibri]By the way
only the ash-red is dominant to blue/black wild type. The other
red produced by same chemicals known as recessive red is not
dominant to blue/black wild-type.[/font]..
--- End Quote ---
So to keep this topic educational and enlightening, please
provide links to web sources that would back up your claim. I
don't think it is going to work to merely say "take my word for
it" to believe you. There are too many thinking men here to rely
on that kind of appeal to your own authority to make your claim.
You have to back it up. Sources please. Thank you.
#Post#: 10410--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: joeb
Date: December 25, 2011, 10:41 am
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Thank you Tony. Arif, the top two pigeon genetics experts are
Quinn and Hollander followed closely by Levi. Until you provide
something more evidentary than "take my word for it", I will
continue to go with the proven expertise. Don't give me this
scientific stuff, I have 2 advanced degrees in math and sciences
so I am not unfamiliar with scientific methods. Ball is in your
court to prove up!!
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 10412--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: mumtaztic
Date: December 25, 2011, 10:49 am
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Not a problem Tony.
If you would like read, start with this one:
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp
Here are my references:
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/Bibliography.pdf
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/Bibliography.pdf
By the way, all the genetics part of the Levi’s book is written
by W.F. Hollander. I know you won’t believe that either…
#Post#: 10413--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: joeb
Date: December 25, 2011, 11:24 am
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Arif,
I applaud your website and your bibliography but where is your
proven and accepted thesis that blue-black is actually just
black? Need that to prove Quinn and Hollander were wrong and
that you are right. You may well be right, but I am looking for
some scientific evidence, not your theory.
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 10414--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: mumtaztic
Date: December 25, 2011, 11:30 am
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Joe B,
I have both Quinn’s and Hollander’s book in front of me. Tell me
where they say there are 3 BASE colors?
Thanks for the compliments by the way. I highly recommend you
read this article as well.
HTML http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/Biosynthesis%20of%20Eumelanin%20and%20Pheomelanin.html
HTML http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/Biosynthesis%20of%20Eumelanin%20and%20Pheomelanin.html
#Post#: 10415--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: December 25, 2011, 12:29 pm
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Arif, I went to your article and read through it. Very thorough
and convincing. I went to some references in your bibliography
and these were convincing and compelled me to sharpen my
understanding on what base colors are and how alleles impact
what we see when it comes to "color" and "dominance".
First we have the "wild-type" which is called black (and as you
indicate in your article, there is no blue as Hollander
characterizes it - as it falsely leads to the belief there is a
"blue" color or blue gene).
While there is ash red, it is not a base color like we see in
wild-type (black +/+). While ash red is dominant over black, it
does not therefore mean that it should be seen thusly: +/+ or a
"base color". Ash red is likely a "mutant" or an allele that
when present, is dominant over blue/black and we get ash red
expressing itself as red bars and red checks. The same goes for
"brown".
So we should see black as the base color and ash red and brown
as alleles, not base colors.
My sources I used were:
The Pigeon by Wendell Levi
Project on Genetics by Hollander and Gilbert
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp
by Arif Mumtaz
HTML http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/wildtype.html
HTML http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/wildtype.html
by
Frank Mosca
Good job!
#Post#: 10416--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: 2y4life
Date: December 25, 2011, 12:53 pm
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Yes, Blue is technically black.
#Post#: 10417--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
DIR By: joeb
Date: December 25, 2011, 2:09 pm
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Arif,
Unfortunately my Quinn and Hollander material is still packed
away as I have just completed a move from Kansas to Texas. At
least one of them if not both referred to the 3 basic colors,
one of which was blue-black. Unfortunately I can't cite you
chapter and verse at this moment but will make an effort to find
the correct references.
Keep up the good work
Joe B
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