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#Post#: 10407--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: joeb Date: December 25, 2011, 8:00 am
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Arif,
Levi and Quinn both state the 3 basic colors are red, blue and
brown in order of dominance. I think you might want to rethink
your statement that blue is not a base color. Black is nothing
more than blue with spread applied.
Have a great day, 8)
Joe B
#Post#: 10408--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: mumtaztic Date: December 25, 2011, 8:30 am
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[font=calibri]If you would like to continue to read the genetic
books written in 40 years ago, and still believe what has been
written, you are absolutely right. If you want to stay
up-to-date with genetics that involves biochemistry, take my
word for it that the only base is black. These guys had no idea
about DNA or biochemistry. It is only last 10 years that we
started to understand how genes look like and started to barely
understand the biochemistry of the pigments produced in the
feathers. Believe what you wish.[/font]
[font=calibri]By the way only the ash-red is dominant to
blue/black wild type. The other red produced by same chemicals
known as recessive red is not dominant to blue/black
wild-type.[/font]
[font=calibri]You have a great day also.[/font]
#Post#: 10409--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: Tony Chavarria Date: December 25, 2011, 9:57 am
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[font=times new roman]Hi Arif, thanks for adding your comments
on this thread. I think you realize that with your comments, you
pretty much are trashing the conventional wisdom which Joe
mentioned here:[/font][quote author=joeb
link=topic=825.msg10407#msg10407 date=1324821617][font=times new
roman] Arif, Levi and Quinn both state the 3 basic colors are
red, blue and brown in order of dominance. I think you might
want to rethink your statement that blue is not a base color.
Black is nothing more than blue with spread applied...Joe B
[/font][/quote][font=times new roman]Joe said what he did in
response to this:[/font][quote author=mumtaztic
link=topic=825.msg10406#msg10406 date=1324815939][font=times new
roman][font=calibri]2y4life,[/font][/font][font=times new
roman][font=calibri]Well you are partially correct. There is no
blue pigment or blue gene in pigeon genetics. It is also
misleading to think that there are 3 so called base colors.
Pigeons are able to produce 3 pigments in their feathers and
they are red, black and brown. However, only base is the black
which is the color of our wild-type (blue bar)
standard...[/font][/font][/quote][font=times new roman]Then you
said to Joe, the following:[/font][quote author=mumtaztic
link=topic=825.msg10408#msg10408 date=1324823404][font=times new
roman][font=calibri]If you would like to continue to read the
genetic books written in 40 years ago, and still believe what
has been written, you are absolutely right. If you want to stay
up-to-date with genetics that involves biochemistry, take my
word for it that the only base is black. These guys had no idea
about DNA or biochemistry. It is only last 10 years that we
started to understand how genes look like and started to barely
understand the biochemistry of the pigments produced in the
feathers. Believe what you wish.[/font][/font][font=times new
roman][font=calibri]By the way only the ash-red is dominant to
blue/black wild type. The other red produced by same chemicals
known as recessive red is not dominant to blue/black
wild-type.[/font][/font][font=times new
roman]..[/font][/quote][font=times new roman]So to keep this
topic educational and enlightening, please provide links to web
sources that would back up your claim. I don't think it is going
to work to merely say "take my word for it" to believe you.
There are too many thinking men here to rely on that kind of
appeal to your own authority to make your claim. You have to
back it up. Sources please. Thank you.[/font]
#Post#: 10410--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: joeb Date: December 25, 2011, 10:41 am
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Thank you Tony. Arif, the top two pigeon genetics experts are
Quinn and Hollander followed closely by Levi. Until you provide
something more evidentary than "take my word for it", I will
continue to go with the proven expertise. Don't give me this
scientific stuff, I have 2 advanced degrees in math and sciences
so I am not unfamiliar with scientific methods. Ball is in your
court to prove up!!
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 10412--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: mumtaztic Date: December 25, 2011, 10:49 am
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[font=calibri]Not a problem Tony. [/font]
[font=calibri]If you would like read, start with this
one:[/font]
[font=calibri]
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp[/font]
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp
[font=calibri]Here are my references:[/font]
[font=calibri]
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/Bibliography.pdf[/font]
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/Bibliography.pdf
[font=calibri]By the way, all the genetics part of the Levi’s
book is written by W.F. Hollander. I know you won’t believe that
either…[/font]
#Post#: 10413--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: joeb Date: December 25, 2011, 11:24 am
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Arif,
I applaud your website and your bibliography but where is your
proven and accepted thesis that blue-black is actually just
black? Need that to prove Quinn and Hollander were wrong and
that you are right. You may well be right, but I am looking for
some scientific evidence, not your theory.
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 10414--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: mumtaztic Date: December 25, 2011, 11:30 am
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[font=calibri]Joe B,[/font]
[font=calibri]I have both Quinn’s and Hollander’s book in front
of me. Tell me where they say there are 3 BASE colors?[/font]
[font=calibri]Thanks for the compliments by the way. I highly
recommend you read this article as well.[/font]
[font=calibri]
HTML http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/Biosynthesis%20of%20Eumelanin%20and%20Pheomelanin.html[/font]
HTML http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/Biosynthesis%20of%20Eumelanin%20and%20Pheomelanin.html
#Post#: 10415--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: Tony Chavarria Date: December 25, 2011, 12:29 pm
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Arif, I went to your article and read through it. Very thorough
and convincing. I went to some references in your bibliography
and these were convincing and compelled me to sharpen my
understanding on what base colors are and how alleles impact
what we see when it comes to "color" and "dominance".
First we have the "wild-type" which is called black (and as you
indicate in your article, there is no blue as Hollander
characterizes it - as it falsely leads to the belief there is a
"blue" color or blue gene).
While there is ash red, it is not a base color like we see in
wild-type (black +/+). While ash red is dominant over black, it
does not therefore mean that it should be seen thusly: +/+ or a
"base color". Ash red is likely a "mutant" or an allele that
when present, is dominant over blue/black and we get ash red
expressing itself as red bars and red checks. The same goes for
"brown".
So we should see black as the base color and ash red and brown
as alleles, not base colors.
My sources I used were:
The Pigeon by Wendell Levi
Project on Genetics by Hollander and Gilbert
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp
HTML http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp
by Arif Mumtaz
HTML http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/wildtype.html
HTML http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/wildtype.html
by
Frank Mosca
Good job!
#Post#: 10416--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: 2y4life Date: December 25, 2011, 12:53 pm
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Yes, Blue is technically black.
#Post#: 10417--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lavenders...
By: joeb Date: December 25, 2011, 2:09 pm
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Arif,
Unfortunately my Quinn and Hollander material is still packed
away as I have just completed a move from Kansas to Texas. At
least one of them if not both referred to the 3 basic colors,
one of which was blue-black. Unfortunately I can't cite you
chapter and verse at this moment but will make an effort to find
the correct references.
Keep up the good work
Joe B
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