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#Post#: 10336--------------------------------------------------
Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: WhiteWing
Date: December 17, 2011, 5:43 pm
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Alright guys, I'm looking for some advice. Let me start off by
saying that I am a hobby flyer and enjoy birds with a little
more depth than birds of a good competition kit.
This will be the third year that I have used this particular
pair in the loft. Both are nice rollers themselves, I aquired
them from a friend in the sport, flew them for a couple years,
and then paired them up based on their performance. Both birds
have a nice form and are in the 20-30 foot range. I paired them
up hoping to get a large percentage of the offspring to turn out
like their parents, but the roll form of the young has been all
over the board. I get almost every kind of roller from this
pair and the inconsistency is what I am trying to eliminate.
They have produced everything from fast, 30-40 footers, to
shallow birds, birds that go into the roll at a young age, and
birds that take longer than a year to start showing signs of the
roll. I have even got a few roll downs from them. My question
is, would it be a good idea to begin line breeding the parents
with their best son and daughter to try and narrow down to the
desired traits?
Thanks in advance for any input guys.
#Post#: 10337--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: December 17, 2011, 5:58 pm
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Here are my thoughts: first, I am wondering if the birds are of
the same family? Usually there is a similarity in traits among
birds of a close family. If they are not, you will have to
develop your own with the traits you like that are being
expressed through your original pair.
At this point, the choice is relatively easy, pick the *best hen
and put it back to its father, do the same with the *best cock
offspring and put it back to the mother. You will want to follow
this pattern for a number of years until you have a better cock
and hen expressing the preferred traits than the original
foundation pair.
As you jam the pedigree (in my experience), you will tend to see
a higher percentage of preferred traits (if you select them
specifically for the traits you desire). This can take a few
generations so don't think it will happen in one or two seasons.
Good luck!
*Birds that are expressing a preponderance of the traits your
desire, in this case, depth.
#Post#: 10338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: 2y4life
Date: December 17, 2011, 7:43 pm
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WhiteWing, without knowing you or your birds, my best GUESS is
that those two birds aren't from the same family or the family
wasn't tightly bred.
Without going into a long-winded post again, if you'd like,
please refer back to this post. Skip the first 4 paragraphs and
start at the fifth paragraph. Basically, I think it's due to how
big/small the gene pool of those two birds are.
HTML http://www.rollerpigeon.com/inconceivable-rapidity-considerable-distance/who-to-breed-how-to-get-what-you-want/msg10093/#msg10093
HTML http://www.rollerpigeon.com/inconceivable-rapidity-considerable-distance/who-to-breed-how-to-get-what-you-want/msg10093/#msg10093
#Post#: 10349--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: WhiteWing
Date: December 18, 2011, 8:55 pm
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Thanks for your replys men. I forgot to mention that they ARE
both from the same family of birds and bred by the same guy. I
have noticed that his breeding methods are quite different than
mine, (his are similar to the "people example" that 2y4life gave
in his article in the provided link), so I guess I have some
"tightening up" to do with this pair if I am going to form a
line from them.
#Post#: 10419--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: Fhtfire
Date: December 27, 2011, 8:22 pm
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Being a close bred family has nothing to do with unproven
breeders. Whenever you take a pair of birds from the air and put
them together ..same family or not...you are rolling the dice.
Even proven breeders will shoot all over the board as far as
depth...speed ect. You will get the click pair that produce
pretty much consistent pairs...but as soon as you break up the
click pair you can be all over the board again.
When I say all over the board I mean some are deeper...some may
be faster etc...but the birds must have a foundation of
something you are looking for. It is very rare that you will get
a pair that will produce all 30-40' birds with the same speed
etc. You will always have some at one end of the spectrum and
some at the other end and some right where you want them.
I myself do not believe in tight breeding for long periods of
time. Remember ..inbreeding is to try and lock in a
trait...once you lock it in you should go back to your normal
breeding.
Let me explain....inbreedi ng is about $$$$. Let me explain.
Lets use horse breeding for example....a bottle of sperm can be
thousand and thousands of dollars from a top stallion. So you
spend that $$$ on the sperm and then you breed a bunch of
horses......then you get the offspring from the $$$ sperm and
lets say you get a nice stallion from the bottle of sperm. Then
you test that stallion...if that stallion hits then you line
breed to that stallion so that you can lock in the genes that
you paid the $$$ for. Or you can even inbreed to try and lock
in that trait too. Either way....it is all about trying to make
the $$$$ sperm work for you so you don't have to go back an
spend more $$$$ on the sperm. The $$$ sperm if you are lucky and
it hits will now be in your blood from line breeding and
inbreeding. Once you have locked in the trait you are looking
for then you go back to your normal breeding practices. That is
why line breeding and or inbreeding is done. It is not a cure
all it too is a roll of the dice.
To me pigeon fanciers at times go overboard in the line breeding
and in breeding....we dont NEED to do it as much. This is why.
We can breed a LOT of birds in a short amount of time to see
what these birds produce and you can recover pretty easy if you
pay attention. Now livestock on the other hand can take 3-5
years just to see if an animal is good or not. Just remember
that livestock like a goat takes 5 months 5 days just in the
gestation period....then you go a whole year after that as a
baby...then as a yearling your breed the goat....a Dairy goat is
in its show prime at about three years old....so you dont really
know what you got until it matures...then the offspring of that
animal can take three years to prove out....do you get where I
am going.....they inbreed to try and shorten the time of trying
to prove an animal out....where pigeons can reproduce quick an
within about 14 months you can see what a pair produces....you
can foster...switch mates etc all in one breeding season. Two
years max and you can prove out a pair of birds. There is no
need for us to keep hammering the line and inbreeding thing.
As far as your offspring.....take the best of what you want and
breed them. You also want to switch mates to see who is pushing
what traits. Is it the cock or the hen or the combination. Once
you find out what the animals produce you can start breeding
accordingly. Since you have the original breeders you dont
have to go all ape shit on inbreeding....if you breed some
offspring and you really like a trait then do as Tony stated
breed back to the parents.....if the offspring of the inbreeding
hit ....and then you breed the offspring and they hit...then you
locked the gene....then you can switch around and what you want
within your own loft....no need to keep inbreeding.....inbr
eeding is for need only not just because. Same goes with line
breeding. Both are short lived cures......inbreedi ng
depression will raise its ugly head.
If it were me.....and I have bred LOTS of livestock and birds
in my life...Champion Livestock I may add.......and I never
inbred one time in all my years. It is basically breeding best
to best.....regardless of the lineage. Breed for traits not
from where the animal came from.
Just so you know too....Some of my best breeders can throw a
roll down....etc....reme mber we are dealing with many many
different genes and combinations of genes....even while
inbreeding. Just look for the NATURAL DOMINATE TRAITS and you
will go far.
Everything is a tool.....and you only use the tool for the
job. Inbreeding may be a hammer....line breeding may be a
screwdriver...but what if you need a pry bar....the other two
tools will not work.
Just remember that when you better be sure that animal you
breed back to is the one that is producing the trait you are
looking for.....then you really really have to pay attention to
the inbred offspring to make sure that they are producing the
trait you are looking for while not pushing bad traits to the
top too.
I would switch the breeder pair with two or three other good
animals....see what they produce then take the best of each
breeding and put those together......then do it again...you WILL
see a pattern...when you see a cock or a hen that is all over
that offspring then go ahead and lock in a trait IF
NEEDED....you may do just fine without inbreeding....as you keep
breeding the best...you will find that the % will go up.
One more thing....COMP BIRDS ARE NOT SHALLOW.......We all
want the same thing...FAST DEEP PIGEONS...I have had pigeons in
my A-Team (COMP) that were all of 60'......you will find that
those pigeons that can hold depth in a REAL comp team....they
return to the kit like a 20' bird.....we are all chasing the
same dream....regardless if comp or not. Popcorn short
rollers dont turn my crank at all...
If I need to explain more just ask....
rock and ROLL
Paul
#Post#: 10420--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: WhiteWing
Date: December 27, 2011, 8:48 pm
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Thanks for the informative post paul. When you mentioned the
aspects of raising goats, now you are speaking my lingo ;) I
raised goats for quite some time, participated in the show
circuit, and also hosted many of the University of Kentucky and
Kentucky State University's goat research programs over the past
few years. Rollers are a new excurscion of mine that are
strictly hobby but I have found a fascination with them.
#Post#: 10422--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: Fhtfire
Date: December 28, 2011, 1:11 pm
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Well...if you have raised livestock then you will have no
problem with Rollers. I would go with what you KNOW and not
listen to a whole lot of wives tales in the roller world. Doing
research and raising animals you know as I know that inbreeding
is a thing of the past....that finding the right sire or dam
that can fix your issues is the key.
What breed did you raise....
I raised La Mancha. i was also on the Show circuit and was a
hired gun for Cache Creek Dairy or the Stage Name so to speak
for papers was Secret Ravine La Manchas. Dr. Joan Dean Rowe
from UC Davis hosted quite a few shows and was a judge for the
big shows too. I have more showmanship golds and round robin
golds then...you could shake a stick at. I really do miss
livestock....pigeon s are easy compared to livestock...man to
get ready for a show...oh my gosh what work....Tattoo
verifications.....v et checks....clean noses....clean
ears....hooves trimmed....then you have to stand post so nobody
messes with your goats the night before the show...I dont know
who it is now but back in the day...it was ruthless with people
trying to make your goats sick...or anything to mess up a good
night of milk production..
My herd was "Lone Star" La Manchas. I had a buck that was Lone
Star Mystery's Black Magic...he went on to be a great sire....he
was in Dairy goat Journal about 25 years ago or so. He was a
huge buck...Black as night...and was a walking picture of
perfection. I bred him a year before I sold him and he threw all
bucks...so no proof....when I got out of goats and sold him he
ended up being a very potent buck with many Champions under his
belt. He had quite a few too...He was very easy to show for a
buck...He was my sidekick when he was a kid. The Sire to
Mystery was Secret Ravine Galaxy's Mystery....very potent
buck...I was half owner in him for quite awhile. Black Magics
Full Sister ...Irish Lady was a beautiful Doe....excellent fore
and rear udder attachment...teats were in perfect location....a
little small but still great....usually a problem for la
manchas...they have small teats naturally...She walked with
elegance in the ring...like she knew she had it...just like the
look of a Roller.
My mentor was Tom Wicks...he passed away quite awhile ago from
cancer...He work and antibodies INC. in Davis Ca. They do lots
of research using goats....anyway...h e was mentor and was
mostly a sheep guy but knew goats too.
Anyway....Do the pigeons just like you would do a herd of
goats....
find out what cocks are producing what....just like you would
prove a buck...then find out what you hens produce just like
your does...and then match breedings according to what they
enhance or fix...you will find it ALOT easier to do then
livestock because the prove out time is cut down about 90%
compared to livestock. Keep your blood fresh just like
livestock and don't inbreed unless needed. Breeding principals
are the same across the board....some think pigeons are
different then other animals...THEY ARE NOT...breeding Parrots,
Rabbits, Hamsters, Cows, Pigeons...it is all the same....
If you have a history in Livestock breeding like you say you
do...go with your instincts not all the different opinions....
I was all messed up when I first started...because what I was
reading on pigeon sites was totally going against what I was
taught in breeding...heavy inbreeding is very primitive as you
know compared to principals of this day and age. So I finally
talked to some of my old livestock buddies about what I was
reading on here and reality and they said dont get sucked
in....do what you know...and to date..
I have NEVER inbred one of my pigeons.......I have crossed
different families......I bring in a cock from another loft if I
think if can add to my loft.....I have done all with great
successs while many said I would spin my wheels.....I needed to
inbreed....I needed to stick with one family....never mix
genes...BLAH BLAH BLAH.....well.....t he proof is in the
pudding.....My whole goal was to go against the grain and prove
that you dont need to line or inbreed to get the job done.
Give me a call would love to chat....530-867-2288.
Dont get me wrong....lots of great knowledge and I have learned
lots over the years with feeding and training the little
boogers as well as knowing what a good pigeon looks like....but
my advice on breeding is stick with what you know...if it works
in goats it will work in rollers...TRUST ME>
rock and ROLL
Paul
#Post#: 10423--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: Fhtfire
Date: December 28, 2011, 1:21 pm
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As far as breeding..I pretzel Breed. I know you have heard the
term or the slang term. Hell it may be called something else
now.
My mentor taught me how to breed in this fashion.....On paper it
looks like crap....you know..ped guys like to see a line or
inbreeding..I dont.....I like to see a cock or a hen blasted all
over the board as a cousin, great grandfather, uncles aunts etc.
Basically I start with a pair...breed them.....picture a
pretzel...at the top you have the pair.....you breed them...then
you pick the best offspring from that pair...then you pick a
cousin or another good bird in your loft and breed the
offspring..basicall y anytime the pretzel crosses (looking at a
real Pretzel)...you cross or bring in something with some
distance.....then you breed those...when you get to the bottom
of the pretzel you take the best of what you have bred and bring
it right back up to the Grand Parents or Great Grand
Parents...then you take those offspring and start a new
pretzel....in the Middle of the pretzel is when you can latch
onto another pretzel and lock them together.....each pretzel is
you original breeding pair....it is confusing on paper...but in
my head it is clear as day....
I teach a class at UC Davis as a guest Speaker..and it is on man
made evolution....I touch a little bit on pretzel breeding and
let the students know that you chase what is evolving not what
is on the paper.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
#Post#: 10425--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: raul carreiro
Date: December 29, 2011, 4:51 pm
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Paul, although you say I have NEVER inbred one of my
pigeons.......I have crossed different families...... Are the
different crosses that you bring into your breeding program
inbred? Personally I think were it not for those you do/did
practise inbreeding you would not have the many fine pigeons or
animals of any breed availible today! There are many succesful
ways one can breed. Inbreeding,linebreeding, outcrossing etc are
just tools that when used correctly and in the right
proportions can give good results! JMHO
#Post#: 10431--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding Inconsistency
DIR By: WhiteWing
Date: December 30, 2011, 5:48 pm
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Paul, I raised and showed Boers which are a meat breed as you
know, so it was different than blooming out a milking doe of a
dairy breed but I know where you're coming from, referring to
the whole show scene. We had a doe named Lara which was a twin
sister to Mara, bred by Sisters II ranch. One of our herd sires
was a son of Eggsfile that we purchased from Don Smith. Another
one of our bucks was purchased from Don Smith as well. He was a
little shorter in frame, built more like a pit bull compared to
the son of Eggsfile we had which was streched out more, but he
had 6 six enoblements in his pedigree. Thats not uncommon
today, but back in the day it meant something because the Boers
have only been in the U.S. since the early '90's. We kept a
herd of about 200 there for about 8 years. When Famacha was
first heard of in these parts, the University of Kentucky and
Kentucky State University used our herd and facilities for a few
years to conduct some rotational grazing studies with different
species of grass in order to determine a difference in worm
counts.
You have helped tremendously to answer my question. The reason
I posted on this was because soooo much of the talk on pigeon
breeding is way out in left field compared to my experience in
breeding livestock so it left the impression on me that I was
now dealing with a totally different playing field and it
confused me some what. You and I know that a good line of
livestock, goats for example, would fall to pieces if we bred
them like many are attempting to breed pigeons today. I would
enjoy talking with you some time. I have been under the weather
this week with the flu so I'll wait til I get my voice back to
contact you.
Thank you much sir,
-Caleb
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