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#Post#: 9739--------------------------------------------------
Starting from Scratch
DIR By: cokoboi
Date: October 27, 2011, 6:45 pm
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Has anyone ever try to create their own roller starting with a
tumbler or the base bird of a roller? Such as having a
different attribute tumbler like one for style, one for
frequency, one for control, one for depth, one for kitting, etc.
Starting from scratch with these individuals that each have a
different attribute. Then try to mix these different attributes
together to obtain a quality roller that we have today. I know
that this will take a long time, but don't you think that this
will make a fancier actually know what he/she is working with?
#Post#: 9741--------------------------------------------------
Re: Starting from Scratch
DIR By: Tiraderoller
Date: October 27, 2011, 8:18 pm
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I think you may find this would take far too long and you would
be culling far more than you might be keeping! Best to get some
good birds from Tony or another individual and breed them in
your prefered direction of abilities. Best of luck if you try
this though!
Paul
#Post#: 9762--------------------------------------------------
Re: Starting from Scratch
DIR By: donnie james
Date: October 29, 2011, 5:53 pm
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hay cokoboi,
i have to agree with paul not to be rude or nothing like that i
would go to a local flyer and pick them out of the air and start
like way and also i wish you the best if your going the way you
said that way your to do..............donnie james
#Post#: 9764--------------------------------------------------
Re: Starting from Scratch
DIR By: Tiraderoller
Date: October 30, 2011, 1:29 am
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Cokoboi,
I am just getting back into rollers, but I would suggest you
listen to the individuals on here like Mr. James, they have a
wealth of knowledge, a willingness too share it, and know what
they are talking about. Listening to them could save you a lot
of time and frustration. What you are asking about could take a
life time to figure out, and possibly two of them to get sorted
out! My roller mentor, said to me, "take two or more breeding
pairs, and one to play around with, then figure out what it is
you you want to do from there!" Getting breeders or good quality
birds can set you on the path you want to go on, then you can be
happy with the family "YOU" have created. Best of luck and I
will hope to hear about your progress!
Paul
Tirade Loft...
#Post#: 9775--------------------------------------------------
Re: Starting from Scratch
DIR By: markmidmo
Date: October 30, 2011, 6:32 pm
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Cokoboi- The base question is "what do you want to do". If you
want to create your own type of performing pigeon you need to
decide what it is you're setting out to accomplish.
There are practical considerations to this once you've set down
your goals. Let's say you've decided on a Muff Buff High
Speed, Deep Depth, Forward Flipping Roller. Hmm, that's 5
traits, just in the name alone.
It is a generally accepted "rule" that an outside trait can be
fixed in a population given 7-10 generations of independant
matings. Ouch, that nasty independant mating thing. What's
that you ask? This is a trait that can be reproduced by
outmating of individuals. So if you have a population of
un-Muffed birds you can add muffs without losing the base
population via 7-10 years of intensive breeding for that trait
without adding any other factors.
Ooops, we have 4 more traits to go. Now there are some sneaky
little genetic factors in creating this breed. If you try to
jumble all the factors together without first "fixing" them in
the population it's doubtful you'll ever get there. So you need
to establish one trait before adding the next.
Now, I'm not so good at this new math, but according to the old
school methods, 5 x 7 is 35 and 5 x 10 is 50. So to fix all
the traits mentioned in the breed profile, you only need 35 to
50 years. And after we've fixed these traits we need to work
on polishing them so that they are "high quality" in the
population.
As a practical example, John Wunderlich a noted breeder and
exhibitor of chickens decided to create White Old English with
full muff (beards under their beaks). When he first crossed to
get a muff on the Old English he got some chickens with a
sort-of-muff on sort-of-white chickens. Over the next 11 years
he continued to mate back to White Old English, reducing the
genetic base by using the same family, all the while working to
keep the best bearded birds. Eventually he produced a few
quality birds each generation, but most were culls. At the time
of his death, the line was barely "unique" as it produced more
off-types than "true to type (based on John's description of
what they should be)". That's 11 years work for just one trait!
Consider how long it has taken to 'perfect" the Birmingham
Roller and it's still being worked on!
I'd never tell you not to undertake a fun breeding project. But
you should ask yourself what you are wanting to accomplish and
how much time and effort you are willing to invest. It won't
be easy.
#Post#: 9776--------------------------------------------------
Re: Starting from Scratch
DIR By: JEFF WILSON
Date: October 30, 2011, 7:25 pm
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John wunderlich was to chickens. what bill pensom was to roller
pigeons. he bred old english & cornish chickens and had some of
the best in the country . cokoboi if you want a project to work
on i would say buy the best rollers you can afford bred them and
you will still have a very hard project in getting 20 bird kits
that perform the way they should. if it is just somthing you
want to try to have fun do it. best of luck Jeff
#Post#: 9777--------------------------------------------------
Re: Starting from Scratch
DIR By: samir
Date: October 30, 2011, 7:27 pm
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--- Quote from: cokoboi link ---
>
> Has anyone ever try to create their own roller starting with a
tumbler or the base bird of a roller? Such as having a
different attribute tumbler like one for style, one for
frequency, one for control, one for depth, one for kitting, etc.
Starting from scratch with these individuals that each have a
different attribute. Then try to mix these different attributes
together to obtain a quality roller that we have today. I know
that this will take a long time, but don't you think that this
will make a fancier actually know what he/she is working with?
>
--- End Quote ---
This does make sense. If something is outcrossed on purpose or
by acident and has favored results should be embraced and
further developed as new breed. "Euros" are far aehed with
this, new breeds are constantly knocking on doors to be
recognized and accepted. At the other hand existing pure breeds
stay pure.
I doesn't have to take 50 years. If someone comes with right
formula and present an atractive breed to me, I'll take it.
Life is too short to wast it on defending things that are
watered down already any way.
Samir
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