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#Post#: 9679--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Tony Chavarria Date: October 24, 2011, 11:07 am
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Hi Cliff, the more I listen to you and everybody else discuss
this topic of rules, interpretations, the need to more clearly
define this or that, the less sense any of it makes. To listen
to the rhetoric, it is a wonder, anyone is capable of flying
good birds without the written standards and rules that I keep
reading about, but yet there are many...therein is your answer.
Go to the guys flying goods birds for a while and ask them what
they do and how they evaluate good kit birds. Find the
associations between them, vote on them and publish them. There
is your "standard". :D
The distinctions of whether it was 5 or 8 birds rolling within
quarter seconds or nano seconds of each other is completely
arbitrary and does NOT indicate the quality of a single bird. I
mean, you could go on forever slicing and dicing what the proper
performance of a kit is to be before it can be scored. I mean a
year from now someone will be saying, a break is only valid if
at least 5 rolled with only the "H" style pattern. Where does it
stop? :P
When I read these detailed descriptions of competition kit
performance, I am thinking like, how in the world is all this to
be figured out in the course of what amounts to a blink of the
eye, especially when it is happening repeatedly from an active
kit? ;)
In any event, where is the progress being made to improving the
Birmingham Roller? Creating new competition rules or defining
them better are not improving the roller, merely moving the goal
posts. 8)
#Post#: 9680--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: tom wingfield Date: October 24, 2011, 12:23 pm
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i agree with you tony, and i might add it is beginging to sound
as if some think the rules should be made then the guys that
want to fly get the type birds that that fit the rules... now i
might be all wrong but it would seem to me rules should fit the
way good kit bird are to perform... i also feel the ones behind
most but not all these rule changes think deep individual
birdsin a break are not getting the credit they feel they
deserve... if some one really would like to improve the
birmingham roller as a compation bird i think it would help alot
if the limit of birds to be scored in a 20 bird kit break to be
half....and maybe dropping the max. kit size to 15 birds if that
would help in the judging.....
#Post#: 9682--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 24, 2011, 1:02 pm
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wingpatchloft
To help clear up my position......let the flyers choose what
rules they want to fly by. Fine by me, as long as " WE ALL
UNDERSTAND THE RULES THE SAME WAY, BOTH JUDGES AND FLYERS
ALIKE." With the things the way they are , with judges NOT using
the rules as we understand them, with different interpretations
floating around from judge to judge, from region to region, and
from nation to nation..... The competitions lack the validity it
once had. I feel that these problems can be "lessened" by better
written , better explained, more easily understood fly rules.
They tried the minimum half turn idea for one or two WC flys
several years back. Because of all the zero's posted, many
complained and the 1/4 turn was reinstated.
Cliff
#Post#: 9683--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 24, 2011, 1:15 pm
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Tony
It depends on what one means by "improving" the Roller as a
Breed. It means different things to different people in
different countries. Improve it for 20-bird competition? For
11-bird competitions? For deep individual performance? For
depth? For speed? For Wing position and style? For kitting? For
instantaneous big breaks? And it depends on whether or not one
even believes that the Breed CAN be improved any more.
Certainly there are biological limits. In any case, I don't
think we can assign any of these as more valid or more important
than the others. Improving the breed in one man's opinion may be
destroying it in another's point of view. It depends on the
individual and what he is looking for. I would go so far as to
say that the breed varies slightly from country to country,
state to state, with varying geographical and climate
conditions, and even loft to loft depending on genetic drift, as
well as the selection of birds based on the goals of the breeder
over time.
All of these descriptions of competition kit performance are
mainly found in our mind's eye with multiple replays and stop
action, NOT REALITY! The comment on if 5 or 8 birds roll
together is in reference to the questions raised about
waterfalls and what is a scoreable break, not quality. Sure,
everyone is capable of flying good birds without any mention of
Fly Rules. This entire discussion revolves around COMPETITION
and leveling the playing field for all flyers. IMHO It is a
competition thing..... Getting judges and flyers working
together and understanding the rules of the game. It is more
about the integrity of the competition, not Rollers per-say, as
a Breed. That said...once a Performance Standard is established,
and once judges are certified to judge to that standard, we can
assume that breeders will begin to produce birds that will
perform accordingly. At least that is what we have seen
historically with other breeds of animals. Whether or not that
is considered an improvement will be in the mind of the
individual.
The same arguments are just as valid talking about whatever
sport you chose. Competition has a way of moving players/flyers
toward a goal, be it winning or getting better skilled, but not
all need that competition motivation... "MOST" find competition
fun without monetary reward. You and I are talking about
different things, all I am concerned with is keeping the game of
Roller competition fair for both judges and flyers, so both are
using and understanding the fly rules in the same way. NOW, if
we were talking about the integrity of the Birmingham Roller
BREED....... Then my comments may change and fall more in line
with your ideas...
Cliff
#Post#: 9686--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: J_Star Date: October 24, 2011, 6:50 pm
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[font=calibri]Gentlemen – The matrix way is the way I judge
rollers, whether it is seen good, bad or indifferent. It is
based on the ranking system. It is equitable and fair and
isolates any strong opinion or any hidden agendas and self
righteousness. Let make a note that I am proud and happy of
being the first and only judge to pin down the way I judge. I
have not seen anyone who claims to be masters of judging to pin
down the way they judge in detail as I have. What do they fear!!
Please charm us and show us the other side of the coin. I am
challenging you all to write down in detail the way you judge
rollers and let all discuss. [/font]
[font=calibri]I am attaching what I see advantages and
disadvantages with the Measurement/Metrics concept for all to
read. I see the pros outweigh the cons by 10 folds. Please
collectively try to write down the advantage/disadvantage of how
we judge today and let us compare notes…will you.[/font]
[font=calibri]
Advantages/Pros/positives in regards to the new way of
thinking…The new concept:
1. [/font]Currently with the way we do things, the scores
are broad and all over the board. With the new system concept,
the scores will tighten up and become grouped. Have you heard of
the “Bell Curve” system which is used in the Human Resources
Departments amongst private Corporate America to evaluate
employees’ performance!! This system concept is the Bell Curve
system for the Roller judging to evaluate our kits and ranking
them from best to worst. It is not a new invention, rather
tested and proven concept that is used for decades in Corporate
America.
2. The current scoring system does not convey in any way
shape or form the makeup of the kit flown. What was the wings
style? What was the speed of the spin? What is the kitting
exhibited by the kit to conform that the kit was a quality kit.
With the new system concept, and the new way of thinking, it
will allow everyone who looks at the score sheet in the bulletin
and/or online, to know exactly and with 100% certainty to the
makeup of the kit flown as I stated in my earlier post. It will
tell the readers the wing style exhibited, the speed of the
spin, depth of the kit and the kitting of the kit, which all of
those are the principles for a quality kit to be justified.
Knowing all that without being under the kit while it was being
judged is impressive by itself. You can look in the bulletin
several years back and can tell how the kit performed that year
just like if the kit flew yesterday and you were there to
witness it. That alone means so much.
3. The current scoring system doesn’t account for kitting,
which is an integral part of the overall quality of the kit…and
kits should be awarded accordingly. The new concept accounts for
kitting. Sometimes, it will break the tie between same scored
kits.
4. The new concept will diminish ambiguity and confusion to
become insignificant in due time. The current system disguises
the judges’ qualification to be a judge. Judges seems to be
flying off the seat of their pants from flyer to flyer or region
to region. When you have a judge’s quality of 1.5 is another
judge’s 1.3 and vice versa because both are based on OPENION
rather than factual data gathered through keen Observation, then
no doubts we have serious issues!! In the current system, a good
flyer does not mean being a good judge, but with the new
concept…it does.
5. We must be the club of the “Drama Queens.” The current
system which is in use today have promoted and caused infighting
and Pickering amongst ourselves for 30 plus years without
finding a way or some worthy solution to put all those
conspiracies to rest. Those same infighting and Pickering will
continue for the next 30 plus years if we don’t recognize it and
won’t do anything to curtail it and correct it. Loose judging
vs. tight judging, biased judging towards own self opinion of
what is score-able and what is not and what the roller should
look like and what have you…All is based on self righteousness.
With this new concept, it will put all that to rest for once and
for all. It will pull the judges toward the center and judges
become centrists instead of loose or tight, and in due time,
they will start calling a spade a spade, just like I do. In due
time, the scoring will become based on logic, guide lines and
observation. If the measurements/metrics say that the “Absolute
H” is worthy of 1.4 base quality multiplier, then it is worth
that, not 1.5 or 1.6.
6. The new process does not change the NBRC rules and
by-laws nor adds to them or deletes from them; rather, it is
governed by them. It does not require us to create new standards
and for us to fight some more of how the standards need to be
spelled out. Nothing changes in respect to faults. What is not
score-able due to faults or waterfalls will not change
whatsoever. It is a way of rearrangements of how we keep the
score and account for things.
7. With the new concept, judges no longer need to sort out
the kits. Judges job become to OBSERVE kit performances and to
count the score-able breaks. The metrics will do all the sorting
and it will let the chips fall to where they may be. It is as
simple as that!!
8. With the current system, we put heavy emphases on the
judges’ integrity clause to defuse tension due to the infighting
and Pickering. With the new concept, the judges integrity clause
will become insignificant and, in due time, obsolete. Judges
will not be ridiculed for the job they do, rather, embraced.
9. In the current practice, subjectivity has been used and
abused in our terminology and used every time we argue, debate
or discuss. With the new concept, subjectivity will become a
thing of the past. Once judges embrace the new concept and used
it, subjectivity will diminish to become insignificant. I
understand, judging depth is subjective due to estimation, but
to experienced hobbyists judging, depth is pretty much estimated
correctly.
10. With the new concept, roller pigeon fanciers and
competitors will have one roller language to speak, communicate
and understand not variables and hypocrisy and not a hated multi
dimensional language that is abused over and over again.
11. The new concept is the most equitable and fairer way ever
presented to the roller competition hobbyists in decades due to
the fact it is based on common sense, sound logic and good
judgment. If all of the above is not logic, then for the love
God what is?
Disadvantages/Cons/Negatives in regards to the new way of
thinking…The new concept:
1. As with the current way of scoring, this negative point
exists but due to the scores are all over the board it is
somewhat concealed. With this new concept, it will group the
scores tighter and tighter on the board and in retrospect, the
work rate of the kits will be visibly important. However, if
judges continue to be misguided and cannot isolate the wheat
from the shaft, meaning they do not discount birds spin with
faults, the total score will be skewed and kits will not be
ranked properly from best to worst. There is no way around this.
The regional judges have to be vigilant and knowledgeable of
identifying faults and discount them. Therefore, the finals
judge usually clean up the ranking if this concept is followed
by the finals judge.
Thanks,
Jay Alnimer
#Post#: 9694--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: learninrollers Date: October 25, 2011, 9:12 am
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Jay, Thank you for the time and thought that you have put into
the compatition rules. As a backyard breeder of over 30 years, I
have not been able to put together what is expected from a
judge, and have not competed. IN THE PAST,my observations were,
this is what I think I saw multiplied by this is what I think
they mean.... Your posts have brought many points together for
me and added others to watch for.I encourage you to overlook the
joke and sarcasm. As a leader in my trade I have learned to
bypass coments by people who proudly yell that won't work, but
aren't able to say I agree, but this may work better.. Evaluate
the thaughtful statement and wiegh if it is coved by the overall
course. In the game of chess you have to think many moves ahead
and it is ok to set up to sacrifice a pawn to win the game.
Rollers are the same. Much observation and small, overlooked,
moves change the outcome of the game.
These rules allow points for a beginners skill level and shows
him where improvment can be gained. An advanced breeders skills
are brought out by higher multiplyers. WHO LOOSESS? More people
may compete.
I, as a backyarder am encouraged by these rules and would be
suprised if others didn't see it the same. Just my opinion,
Mitch
#Post#: 9696--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: joeb Date: October 25, 2011, 11:03 am
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Maybe it is just me but I think the current National champion
might have a better idea on what is the proper way to judge a
kit of rollers than a guy who thinks the way to get elected to
national office in the NBRC is to make nasty, mean insinuations
about the current office holder. ???
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 9701--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 25, 2011, 12:04 pm
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Joe,
I must be blind...I don't see any nasty, mean insinuations about
any current holders of any NBRC office in this thread. What I am
reading is a legitimate discussion about improving the Fly Rules
among men who value performance. And I don't see that any one
person's opinion is any more valid than the others. Are you sure
you are on the right thread?
Cliff
#Post#: 9702--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: joeb Date: October 25, 2011, 2:27 pm
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Cliff,
Go back to the last election when he called Bob a drunk and
insinuated that there was money missing because there had not
been an audit of the books. This guy is running unopposed, when
he is installed, I will no longer be a member of the NBRC!!
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 9703--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: 2y4life Date: October 25, 2011, 2:35 pm
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[quote author=joeb link=topic=755.msg9702#msg9702
date=1319570825]
Cliff,
Go back to the last election when he called Bob a drunk and
insinuated that there was money missing because there had not
been an audit of the books. This guy is running unopposed, when
he is installed, I will no longer be a member of the NBRC!!
Keep em spinning
Joe B
[/quote]
I assume you're talking about Jay here?
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