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#Post#: 9639--------------------------------------------------
The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Tony Chavarria Date: October 22, 2011, 10:37 am
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Hi Jay, I like the idea of improving the judging process
HTML http://www.rollerpigeon.com/roller-competition/wing-position/msg9636/?topicseen#new<br
/>to make things easier and clear cut, however, I am concerned
that your process may be a bit top heavy in that there seem to
be so many areas where data needs to be collected and
summarized. Are not these suggestions and innovations still
limited by personal interpretation and observation skills of
those involved, and if so, how then, does that actually improve
the current judging process as far as reliable scoring system? I
say tomaaaaaato, you say tomato... :D
It is still going to come down to the human eye interpreting
what it thinks it is seeing. THIS is where the subjectivity
comes into play, no matter what the scoring system is. The real
problem I think, is the 100% collection of data that is required
to be recorded to render a "true" score is simply impossible
with current technology and the logistics of collecting required
data.
* Consider, as has been pointed out previously, you cannot know
if a bird is rolling with the H style unless you are directly
under the bird and they are at a height where that kind of
detail is able to be viewed. This alone will account for
inaccurate scores and they cannot reflect the actual
performance. So quality multiplier score will suffer.
* Consider, if a kit is directly above the judge, how can he
determine depth? Again, this alone will account for inaccurate
scores and they cannot reflect the actual performance. So depth
multiplier score will suffer.
* Consider, (reader, add your own)
Thus, the integrity of even this new system comes into question
as even IT is unreliable. So the fact of the matter is, this
innovative scoring system like any other that has been tried or
is in use, will be limited by the observation skills and
interpretation of the judge. I have come to this conclusion,
here is how you train a judge and score
You show him a single roller doing IT right, you then say "when
five or more do that together, you go "wow, did you see that"?
Give him a point. The more "wows...did you see that" the more
points a flyer gets, that's his raw score. If you want to add
multipliers, here you go
The louder the shout of "WOW...did you see that?", the higher
the multiplier.
After all, when guys collect in a backyard to watch birds, isn't
this basically what you hear from them? Score the judges
reaction to what he is observing. I am sure that based on a
judges years and experience in the hobby, his sheer enthusiasm
will be tempered by what he has learned and observed, this will
be known as a "hard judge" (someone say Scott Campbell). The guy
who gets excited simply about "action" will score everything,
thus you have your high scores!
So in the end, it is the human failing to see a kit from all
angles that disqualifies a scoring system, at the same time, it
is the excitement of what IS seen that will determine the final
score.
Somehow it seems appropo to conclude this post with the current
aerial standard coined by Lewis Wright over a 100 years ago and
repeated by so many since then:
"The true Birmingham Roller which turns over backwards with
inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a
spinning ball".
Can I get a "WOW...did you see that"?
;)
#Post#: 9641--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: joeb Date: October 22, 2011, 11:02 am
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Tony,
You forgot the oooh aaah factor. Is that higher or lower than a
wow? What about, damn, that was awesome? LOL
Seriously though, I applaud Jay's attempt at trying to quantify
some of the scoring measures. It just isn't quite there yet.
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 9642--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Tony Chavarria Date: October 22, 2011, 11:09 am
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Joe, I like your "oohs" and "aahs" as multipliers. ;D
It will be quite the slog for Jay's scoring system to be
accepted and implemented any time soon. But power to him for
trying something new! 8)
#Post#: 9643--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: michael salus Date: October 22, 2011, 12:29 pm
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Tony, Well said and way too simple!!! ;D
#Post#: 9646--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Tiraderoller Date: October 22, 2011, 6:20 pm
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[font=arial]Maybe being some what of a "newbie" I am way off
base, but has anyone thought of using one of the new high speed
video cameras too capture someone's birds during a fly that are
"doing it right" from various angles and positions? Then using
this information to assist and visually train the judges! They
use videos to train sports refs and judges in figure skating and
synchronized swimming (no, I don't watch those sports). Once the
eyes are trained, I am sure the mind will be better equipped to
comprehend what is right from wrong! Some of these cameras
capture over 675,000 frames per second with shutter speeds up to
20 nsec, which is incredible! You can watch a hummingbirds
single wing beat taking over a minute to view frame by frame in
slow motion! [/font] [font=arial]I guess if this isn't do able
and all esle fails, try using a sound level meter to capture all
the oohs, awws, wows, holy [email=#*&%@'s]#*&%'s[/email] and
hopefully not the sound of any feathered lawn darts hitting in
the judges vicinity! [/font] [font=arial]Paul[/font]
[font=arial]Ps. Tony I just finished reading "How to Breed
Better Rollers", when is the next book coming out?[/font]
#Post#: 9655--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: south wind Date: October 23, 2011, 6:57 am
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I'm new so what I suggest may have been discussed long ago. The
process for both competitions is a judge with the regional
director assisting in keeping time & score watch the birds and
give his opinion of the performance. Then another judge repeats
this process of the winners on a national or international level
to determine the overall winner.
Suggestion: The regional directors travel with a person making
video records of the fly. Each region submits their videos to a
panel of judges; say the __ top winners from the previous year
or any other group of judges considered appropriate. The winners
of each region send their videos to a panel of judges at the
national or international level to pick the overall winner.
There would still be the issues with weather, angles and so
forth but by getting multiple opinions of the same performance
it could be the first step in consistency of the standards .
#Post#: 9665--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: wishiwon2 Date: October 23, 2011, 10:01 pm
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[quote author=south wind link=topic=755.msg9655#msg9655
date=1319371058]
Suggestion: The regional directors travel with a person making
video records of the fly. Each region submits their videos to a
panel of judges; The winners of each region send their videos
to a panel of judges at the national or international level to
pick the overall winner. There would still be the issues with
weather, angles and so forth but by getting multiple opinions of
the same performance it could be the first step in consistency
of the standards .[/quote]Yes, this idea and ones like it have
been discussed before. The primary problem has been and
continues to be the videography. One cameras capable of
capturing satisfactory video are very expensive, two so much is
dependant on conditions and camera angle/operator ability, three
this creates a sterile competition where there is no
socializing, fellowshiping etc.
[quote author=Tiraderoller link=topic=755.msg9646#msg9646
date=1319325615]
[font=arial] has anyone thought of using one of the new high
speed video cameras too capture someone's birds during a fly
that are "doing it right" from various angles and positions?
Then using this information to assist and visually train the
judges! [/font][/quote]This has been hashed over as well. To
date, there havent been quality enough vidoes produced to serve
as a training tool. Also inspite of the quality of video made,
the transfer through virtual media degrades the quality greatly.
Judging rollers isnt that difficult of an event. It would be
nice to have high quality video of some top kits/birds
performing, to archive and see in 10, 20 yrs if we value the
same traits and qualities as we do now.
Much ado had been made through internet posts about judging
inadequacies or discrepancies, when in reality judging has been
satisfactory on a wide scale. Unfortunately there are a vocal
few who make it sound as though the sky is falling when it comes
to judging rollers. Very rarely does the best kit flown not win.
If everyone were able to watch a every kit, it would be near
consensus which kit flew and performed the best.
Where folks go awry with judging rollers is when we try to make
it an objective, uniform judgment. It is not that. It is the
subjective judgement of an illusion and therefore results will
vary. When people accept it for what it is, the heartburn can go
away and people are able to get back to enjoying flying/watching
rollers perform.
#Post#: 9667--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 24, 2011, 7:54 am
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wishiwon2
I have been watching the world series lately and they have all
the modern electronic data to replay every play yet, they will
NOT use it . The home plate umpire makes mistakes on balls and
strikes routinely, and even base tags are missed in a few cases.
No one seems to pay much attention to the problems caused by
human error....... WHY? Because 1) umpire mistakes are part and
parcel of the game and more importantly......AL L THE PLAYERS,
ALL THE UMPIRES AND ALL THE PEOPLE WATCHING UNDERSTAND THE RULES
THE SAME WAY. The Roller judge is a part of our hobby and NO
way should we change that. But the problems that seem to plague
our sport boils down , in most cases, to differences in
interpretation of the rules..... Due in most part, to poorly
written fly rules. WE can fix that over time, if we want to.
We should expect "judging discrepancies and human errors" but we
must first all ....agree on the standards/rules of the game. I
am not worried about differences in break numbers or
multipliers, I am very concerned on how the judges understand
the rules on how to identify a scoreable break, what the
universal benchmark standard is, and how to properly score the
range of quality. If you say it was a 8 bird break and I say it
was a 5 bird break, no problem. If you say there was NO BREAK
because three birds went before or after your 8 bird break and I
say otherwise...... Then we have a problem, not in
counting...but in understanding the rules.
Cliff
#Post#: 9670--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: windjammer loft Date: October 24, 2011, 9:03 am
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Although, I am not interested in any competition flying. I do
have to agree with Cliffs statement " But the problems that seem
to plague our sport boils down, in most cases, to differences in
interpretation of the rules".... I've been in the Dog game for
over 30 yrs., obeidence and comformation and the biggest
conflict is "interpretation" of the standards... This is a
"never ending" battle... I wished I had the answer......, but I
think this is one of those "battles" that will "never" be won.
Just my opinion
#Post#: 9678--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New "WOW...Did You See That?" Scoring System
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 24, 2011, 10:23 am
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windjammer
Add to the confusion, our WC rules are now being interpreted for
various foreign nations with different languages and different
cultures. But when the flyers who wrote them can't agree on
their meaning, we must be able to write a clearer more precise
rule/standard...... or at least TRY?
Cliff
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