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#Post#: 9490--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: October 14, 2011, 11:34 am
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Absolutly Joe .. style , balance and speed is the over all make
up of quality. Toss out glitch or wingswitch as that should
disqualify the roll completly. Keep in mind even the best won't
hit it correctly every time it rolls, just means it shouldn't
score when it is off.
#Post#: 9491--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: joeb
Date: October 14, 2011, 11:42 am
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Thanks Scott, I thought I was losing my mind there for a while.
;)
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 9496--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 14, 2011, 7:16 pm
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[font=arial]
Guys
I believe that the "QUALITY" multiplier is the judges average
evaluation of REVOLUTIONS per second , commonly referred to as
SPEED AND the average wing positions observed, of those birds
that scored.
The Depth multiplier is or should be self-explanatory..... The
average depth estimation of the birds that scored.
So for scoring purposes, speed is accounted for in the Quality
multiplier, like Joe said.
But as I think Jay is saying, aerodynamically speaking, the
speed of revolutions is related to the rate of descent and
probably the distance of the descent (deoth). But we have no way
of accounting for it in the depth multiplier. I have had this
discussion with fliers recently and the consensus of opinion was
that faster spinning birds do fall farther.On the other hand, we
have all seen slow sloppy ten footers and blazing fast 10
footers....and we have all seen slow, sloppy 40 footers and we
have seen blazing fast 40 footers.
Cliff
[/font]
#Post#: 9497--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 14, 2011, 7:19 pm
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Jay
In the rules, the judge is given the option of using DEPTH or
DUIRATION to help him evaluate the Depth multiplier. The birds
that seem to hang in mid air instead of fall, are few and far
between and would in all probability, not have the numbers to
greatly effect the average Depth multiplier, when figured by
depth estimation alone.
I have seen a few but never 5 or more in a break, maybe one in
every 100-200 birds? In all honesty most judges evaluate breaks
looking for separation to help him estimate the numbers. A bird
that hangs up, not fall and not separate from the kit, may get
lost in the kit and fail to be seen by most judges.
Cliff
#Post#: 9498--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 14, 2011, 7:30 pm
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"......birds that so call blur, do so because of speed coupled
with being off balance. Even so you can still spot the wing and
it is a more over all violent type roll due to being off
balance."
We all need to bear in mind that this is strictly conjecture and
opinion as to what might be happening during fast blurred out
spinning and it has not been verified or documented by any means
such as video analysi. We don't really KNOW what is occurring,
yet. We have only recently anlyzed and documented the actual
revolutions per minute during spinning, done through video
analysis...this work being done my Clay Hoyle, among
others.....I believe the fastest bird they have recorded was 12
revolutions per second and there were no particular faults
obvious....but then we are reaching the limits of the video
camera that was used. We have better equipment available today
and hopefully somebody will do some more research to determine
if extreme speed=blurring out visually=poor balance to establish
the actual reality of what is true....
Cliff
#Post#: 9499--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: J_Star
Date: October 14, 2011, 7:47 pm
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Cliff - for so many lengthy posts and discussion here on this
site about depth and all the arguments in the past we came out
with at least two things. Those are that there are some birds
that spin so fast and appear to drop only few feet and the other
is that we have birds that spin deep starting fast then the
speed start to diminish at a certain point in the spin. Doesn't
this say that depth and speed are correlated and depth has an
effect on speed? That is the point I am driving. I am saying
that speed has great effect on depth just as it has a great
effect on quality.
Is it fair to give birds a multiplier of 1.4 for example for
spinning 30 feet starting fast then start to slow the spin
toward the end just because they are 30 footers while another
kit where the birds spin 30 feet but they maintain the speed all
the way until they snap out of it, and award them a multiplier
of 1.4 because they are 30 footers also just like the first kit.
That is crazy. Somewhere the second kit has to be ranked above
the first kit, but with awarding them the same 1.4 multiplier,
then something is wrong with how we award the multipliers.
So, what I am saying in this discussion is that the first kit
will be awarded 1.4 for the depth with average speed. However,
the second kit will be awarded 1.42 for example of above average
speed. Then the second kit will be ranked above the first kit
when it comes to depth. Period.
Jay
#Post#: 9501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 14, 2011, 8:28 pm
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Jay
I don't disagree with you on the aerodynamic effect of speed on
quality and depth. We are trying to evaluate the ILLUSION of
spinning , the best way we know how, and the system was
established lumping speed in with Quality. In my opinion, we
should have three multipliers in actuality.....Quality, Speed
and Depth. Speed is worthy of its own multipleir...not being
lumped in with the others....
If the judge sees it as you see it , he may agree with your
ideas or he may not.
The judge is trying to ESTIMATE his average D&Q, so far, we
have no way to be exact with our evaluations.
The distance between judge and kit will also effect how he sees
the spin, the color of the birds, the color of the background,
how hard the wind is blowing, is it raining, misting, etc., all
play into how we see the illusion.
Depth and speed may have some connection in some kits but for
our judging , with our rules, the depth multiplier has no other
element involved but the average estimation of the depth of
those birds that scored.
The quality multiplier is not designed to include depth, it is
a function of speed and wing position, smoothness, that kind of
things.
The birds you are describing, that hang in the air and do not
fall with the break, do happen on rare occasions but not enough
to worry about in my opinion or happen frequently enough to
influence a Quality multiplier.
But it does make for an interesting conversation.
Cliff
#Post#: 9502--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: J_Star
Date: October 14, 2011, 8:38 pm
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Cliff - But we don't have 3 multipliers, we only have 2 for
quality and depth. Speed plays a big part in the quality of the
roll and in the depth of the roll. If you were following this
thread from the start, you will see that I am saying when I
award the extra fraction hundredth of a point to the super and
superior speed, I award it equally to the quality and depth
multipliers. The disagreement is that speed only should be
lumped up with the quality but not depth. I disagree since speed
is a function of quality and depth.
I had the same discussion with Joe Emberton when he came and
stayed over my house for a night judging the finals. Here is
what they do in California…and no wonder why the California guys
are agreeing with each other, when the kit exhibit H style which
is deserving of 1.4 multiplier but because the kit also exhibit
above average speed they award it a 1.5 or 1.6 for quality
depending on if the speed is super or superior. What this does
is puts the kit in a different style category which the kit
doesn’t deserve. As you and I talked about the spinning style
which comes in three categories of [X, H, and ()] and with each
one of those categories come with three subcategories (good,
better, and best) and each category/subcategory has a multiplier
starting from 1.1 all the way to 1.9. This obviously puts their
kits in different prospectives. No wonder why they have big
scores and they are disappointed when they are judged logicaly.
Jay
#Post#: 9509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: Sound Rollers
Date: October 15, 2011, 11:31 am
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"some birds that spin so fast and appear to drop only few feet"
Is it possible that a roller can spin so fast that it would
start to act as a helicopter, or is that farfetched?
John
#Post#: 9510--------------------------------------------------
Re: Blur or H style
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: October 15, 2011, 2:06 pm
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First Cliff .. there is no such thing as a blur , there is only
a blurred effect.. and you can see what is actualy happening if
you look for it and is why I said "with a critical eye"
Scott wrote:
"......birds that so call blur, do so because of speed coupled
with being off balance. Even so you can still spot the wing and
it is a more over all violent type roll due to being off
balance."
Cliff wrote :
We all need to bear in mind that this is strictly conjecture and
opinion as to what might be happening during fast blurred out
spinning and it has not been verified or documented by any means
such as video analysi. We don't really KNOW what is occurring,
yet.
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