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#Post#: 9016--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: September 24, 2011, 10:16 pm
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--- Quote from: wingpatchloft link ---
>
> tony that was my point in the post........ ;D
>
--- End Quote ---
Got it! Thanks, I was a little slow on the uptake... :-[
#Post#: 9018--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: tom wingfield
Date: September 25, 2011, 6:44 am
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thank you tony that is the post, not only did bruce cooper tell
me about PENSOM carl cribbs and houghton clamed the same thing..
very hard for some to belieave but i have seen in my life people
do it with dogs , cats horses mules, and several with wild
animals.. i have hunted hounds all my life and find myself able
to read them as PENSOM could do with rollers... sure wish i had
the same talent with birds....tom
#Post#: 12234--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: nephilim
Date: March 2, 2013, 5:13 pm
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I know this is an old thread and people have possibly moved on
or forgotten about it. But there is a grain or truth if not
more. Years ago I got into racing pigeons, and bought of this
guy who was giving up. I had this little hen that looked so
scruffy and if he'd caught it in the city centre park. I culled
it. A few weeks later the guy gives me 3 cock birds and said
pair any of these to the scruffy hen! That scruffy hen had
produced champion distance winning pigeons! yet she was rubbish
and never flew more than 10min! So If that is taken on board
then, Yes you can breed. It's been said that Pensom could pick a
good roller on the perch. My Father kept rollers of and on from
the late 1940's to early 1970's. He took a look at my birds the
other day and without having ever seen them out picked out my
best 4 birds and told me which hen to pair them to! How did he
do it? I myself have visited a few people and without having
seen their birds before, picked out the best cock and hen in
each coop!
#Post#: 12235--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: donnie james
Date: March 2, 2013, 7:23 pm
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this might sounds little odd but i have seen champion pair raise
no spinning young and average pair raise a champion young bird
and i been in the hobbie short time of 38 years donnie james
#Post#: 12236--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: nephilim
Date: March 2, 2013, 8:13 pm
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Hey donnie.
That's very true, and there's always
the chance they will go the other way and become
crashers(rolldowns). I've seen nestmates turn out as a flat
flyer and a crasher! I guess this is where scruplious records
come into play, If you've recorded the performance of parents
grand ans great grand parents, will take a little of the guess
work out, a bit like colour breeding I guess. M6 own young from
last year are very late devlopers, in hindsight I think they
shouldn't be bred till they are 18-24 months. I was very
dissapointed with them at first, so I decided to concentrate on
building their stamina than performance. I let a few out today
and they was a lot better than before their winter lock down.
#Post#: 12242--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: donnie james
Date: March 3, 2013, 2:50 pm
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hay nephilim,
i guess we're on the same page how we look at things donnie
james
#Post#: 12243--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: raul carreiro
Date: March 3, 2013, 5:35 pm
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Hello nephilim,
I agree that a pair of non rollers can produce good spinners and
also the opposite, good spinners can produce non rollers! Now as
to Pensom and others including yourself who claim to be able to
pick another mans good or best birds off the perch well I would
have to respectfully say that I believe there is a certain
amount of old wifes tales attached to this capability. However
if one has bred and flown rollers long enough I would think that
there may be certain tell tale qualities that are both
measurable and observable in a good roller! Not that I have
attained such a level of diagnostic capability In the short time
that I have been in rollers :P I have heard and read some very
broad statements concerning various breeding methods, breed for
"balance", mate best to best!
I think David Kowaliski puts it best!
On a superficial level, these broad statements have some value.
But the writer always left out the specifics , perhaps to tease
the new fancier into thinking more about his or her chosen
breed. Or perhaps these writers wanted new fanciers to believe
roller breeding is so full of magic and mystery that only a
select few could interpret that magic breeding formulas. Or
perhaps they were only repeating what writers before them had
said, without attempting to make real sense out of the advice.
The result is that roller breeders are still confused about how
to breed faster, more stylish spinners.
#Post#: 12245--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: nephilim
Date: March 3, 2013, 6:49 pm
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Hey Raul.
I've not read the Dave Kowolski book, so can't
comment. I recently aquired the Pensom book, it was on that well
known auction website for £75 or about $100! but I got it from
Foy's for around $10 plus postage. I really can't say who I
formulate the opinon on picking out a bird, when my dad showed
me how to pick them out, it was a little like the karate kid and
je was Mr Miagi. trying to remember what he showed me some 40yrs
ago is a little foggy in my mind. But these birds just pop out
at you! I believe that all these books written, always leave
something out, especially the books on racing pigeons. I like to
gather as much details about pigeon keeping, to try and shift
out what the magic key is? It's like watching OCC show on TV,
you never see them place any rubber mountings when they put a
gas tank on a bike. But if you ride bikes you know there is. But
some young person, wouldn't understand the outcome if there is
non. Maybe when these people write a book, they assume that the
reader is an established pigeon fancier/keeper. I used to work
in a pet shop in the aquatic depot. I would treat everyone as a
new starter, I'd explain why and this was to make sure, nothing
was missed while we tried to sort out any problems. Sorry I'm
going off topic. I know my goood birds, so to try and not be
onesided,when picking birds to pair out, I move my best birds to
another coop, then go back an spend hours just watching my birds
interact with each other. I really think hours of observation is
helpful, when looking to breed, I just spot things, litttle
mannerisms and think, that hen will go with this cock. I
mentioned the pet shop, I got the job by going in a couple of
days before the official opening and asked who supplied their
marine fish? I then asked for a pen and paper, and wrote down
what would be dead in two da6s time when they opened officially.
On the day I went in and asked how it gone, they said that I was
right by 90% and had got it wrong on a few! To which I said if
it wasn't the named fish, I bet I got the number right? So they
said to that point I was 100%! How did I know and do I want a
position? The secret was in the supplier being one of the worse
and the little tell tale signs, such as breathing the speed
their gills moved, tiny movements, and basically knowing my
fish. Please excuse any mistakes, I'm using my smart cell phone,
with it's tiny keypad and my fat fingers.
#Post#: 12247--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: raul carreiro
Date: March 4, 2013, 2:30 pm
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Hi Nephilim,
I too have got Pensoms book. I find it to be a good book
although not as complete and as informative as David Kowalski's
book. (I may get stoned by the Pensom worshipers for this) :D
One bit of advice in Pensoms book I have found useful is this (
When we breed Rollers we do not try to produce the roll, we
endeavor to control it.) Far too many beginners, and at one
time including myself seem to believe that the goal is to
produce birds with lots of roll! Producing deep rollers is
easy!! Its producing rollers that can control the roll, that
is the hard part ;)
#Post#: 12260--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
DIR By: wishiwon2
Date: March 5, 2013, 10:41 pm
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--- Quote from: raul carreiro link ---
>
> Hi Nephilim,
> I too have got Pensoms book. I find it to be a good book
although not as complete and as informative as David Kowalski's
book. (I may get stoned by the Pensom worshipers for this) :D
One bit of advice in Pensoms book I have found useful is this (
When we breed Rollers we do not try to produce the roll, we
endeavor to control it.) Far too many beginners, and at one
time including myself seem to believe that the goal is to
produce birds with lots of roll! Producing deep rollers is
easy!! Its producing rollers that can control the roll, that
is the hard part ;)
>
--- End Quote ---
I wont crucify you over the Pensom book comment, it hasnt been
that helpful for me either. My comment is about Kowalski's book,
although it may have had more information in it, the worth of
that information is suspect. What has Kowalski done to
substantiate his writings? Answer: nothing. If people are
following his advices and/or flying his birds, they are doing it
in secret.
The most useful book for me has been Dr Graham Dexter's.
Information from a variety of successful fliers. He added his
own experiences to thiers and between he and they has evidence
that the lessons taught there, work in the real world. They are
not hypothesis or theory, but practical applications.
Raul you are correct in your assertion that producing roll is
easier than producing rollers that can control the roll they
possess. It is a fine balance to be sure. Flying kits of non
performing stiffs to kits of lawn darts that cant go up and back
without crashing, neither of the extremes is the target.
Somewhere in the middle we try to produce birds that are full of
the roll impulse but have the mental and physical ability to
control the frequency and depth of performance even to the
extent that they do it together.
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