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#Post#: 8870--------------------------------------------------
George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: Tony Chavarria Date: September 12, 2011, 11:38 am
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In Graham Dexters excellent book "Winners With Spinners", under
the chapter titled "Selecting Stock and Managing The Breeding
Loft" several English Fanciers among which are Barry Shackleton,
Bill Barret, Bob Brown, Ernie Strafford, and others are asked
to comment on selecting rollers under the context of having the
knack for selecting stock off the perch. He mentions Ernie
Strafford and Bob Brown along with Bill Pensom having this
knack.
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One of the fanciers whose response I find interesting is the one
by George Mason, here is his quote on page 67:
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The money quote is the 10% that are selected on the way they are
bred "family-wise": "...They don't have to roll well in the air.
They don't have to roll at all, I would still put them in the
stock pen provided they bred right and they have got brothers
and sisters that are doing the job".
I can see that there are going to be various opinions on this
practice but in the context of having the knack for selecting
rollers, can good rollers be produced from birds selected with
this practice?
Be sure to participate in the poll, lets see what the majority
think about this practice for those with the knack.
#Post#: 8871--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: 2y4life Date: September 12, 2011, 11:56 am
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I can see why George Mason said that. I've talked with him
before, both through email and phone, and he mentioned then that
he did this although he never mentioned the exact percentage.
I've yet to experience this as I'm still a "squeaker" in
breeding terms but those experienced flyers and breeders have
experienced breeding the best flyers together and still not get
any good rollers at all. Sometimes they breed their
average/subpar rollers together and get great rollers.
While click pairs are usually best to best, every now and then
you will find a click pair that is not best to best. If they
have it in them, the genes to roll and mental stability, they
can still produce top notch spinners.
Remember what Mason said. They have to have been bred right so
you don't just find culls to breed from. The parents have to be
top notch and the brothers and sisters have to be good.
Basically, every now and then, you can select a bird based on
how it looks and its pedigree (parents AND SIBLINGS). This only
works if you are working within a family. If the strain's gene
pool is tight, this method will work sometimes.
Mason did say the best method is still best to best but as he
mentioned there in the book, he only does this to about 10% of
his breeders as an experiment. If it doesn't work, they are
gone.
As a newbie, I will not be trying this method until probably
another 5 years or so once I get a firm hold on the family of
birds I'm working with (lol at 5 years...maybe 30???)
BTW, to answer the question above, absolutely YES. A well-bred
nonroller or average roller CAN produce good rollers. There's a
side note though, the chances are slim but it does happen.
Tou
#Post#: 8877--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: raul carreiro Date: September 12, 2011, 6:02 pm
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I think most here would say a non roller is a cull, regardless
if its siblings, related birds are good performers and are from
a well bred family/strain. I would agree however with GM that a
non rolling bird can produce good birds. I would only resort to
such a breeding if I had nothing else to breed to! Its my
opinion some will breed to non rollers if they have few birds
of quality and want to make up breeding pairs to get the
quantity. But hey getting good birds from mediocre or non
rollers is a fact! But then again mediorce musicians can get a
top hit once in a life timeLOL!
#Post#: 8882--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: donnie james Date: September 12, 2011, 8:19 pm
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hay tony,
i have to agree and disagree with george on this on the agreeing
part they tell me if you take a non-roller and put a good roller
they will produce good good rollers but on the other i tried
this a couple time and the birds didn't roll out of a non-roller
and a good roller and i think its a waste of a breeding season
.........................donnie james
#Post#: 8895--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: Paul Conway Date: September 13, 2011, 4:44 pm
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Would a bird that doesn't roll from a good cross with good
brothers and sisters rolling well, be better than a sibling from
the same pair that rolled sloppily? I'm thinking the
percentage of fanciers that can pick out the 10% that don't roll
but would still be good breeders is a very small percentage of
us? Why suggest such a practice to the masses?. Why not use
the brother or sister that were rolling good? Someone on here
(Scott?) made a harsh statement about rollermen being better off
if they culled half thier breeders. Harsh, but with a healthy
dose of truth and reality in it. What practice would be better,
attempting to pick a non-roller for your breeder loft or
increasing your standards of your breeders by eliminating the
bottom half of the breeding loft?? I'm not buying it as
general practice. Most of us aren't and will probably never be
good enough to do this and if we were then we're certainly good
enough to pick one that does roll that will produce good
offspring. Heck that later should be a cake walk for someone
that can do the former. For us mere mortals, it's hard enough
to pick a good breeder from the birds that do roll nice, look
good, etc, etc, etc., Some of that was free flowing, typing
what I was thinking, but I bet dollars to donuts though that
it's not nearly as cut and dry as I believe it to be on first
glance. Man, spending time with Mr. Mason and those like him
would be an education for sure. regards, Paul Conway.
#Post#: 8899--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: tom wingfield Date: September 13, 2011, 6:40 pm
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i am not going into a long detailed story, but here in short is
a true story, years ago there was a man in oregon that had the
best to be had pensom stock. a new be came to him and got 8
pairs of birds out of his cull pen, none rollers, lazy birds,
out flyers, roll downs, ect... this new be flew better kits bred
out of these culls than any of us had ever seen flown at the
original breeders loft..........fact
#Post#: 8902--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: Joe Asaro Date: September 13, 2011, 9:43 pm
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wingpatch....It's Bill Pensom, Not (Penson). If they were roll
down's and all sorts of culls they were in there for a reason.
This person from OR would not have given away Culls to a person
new to the sport as stock birds. :o :o Joe
#Post#: 8912--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: tom wingfield Date: September 14, 2011, 11:15 am
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joe, thanks for the spelling lesson l.o.l. , no one said they
were given for stock birds... the point i was trying to make was
made...the birds had been culled but were out of birds mr.
cribbs had for many years...mr. cribbs stock was from the best
of mr. pensom , & mr. smith ... the breeding was there......tony
the man that got the birds had to cull just as mr cribbs had
done... you get culls from what ever you raise from , at lease i
do..........tom
#Post#: 8913--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: 2y4life Date: September 14, 2011, 12:02 pm
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[quote author=wingpatchloft link=topic=708.msg8912#msg8912
date=1316016913]
joe, thanks for the spelling lesson, no one said they were given
for stock birds... the point i was trying to make was made...the
birds had been culled but were out of birds mr. cribbs had for
many years...mr. cribbs stock was from the best of mr. pensom ,
& mr. smith ... the breeding was there......tony the man that
got the birds had to cull just as mr cribbs had done... you get
culls from what ever you raise from , at lease i do..........tom
[/quote]
Genetically speaking, this is quite possible. It's unlikely but
possible just like what George Mason said. It's possible to get
great birds out of non-performers so long as the non-performers
are out of good stock and have great siblings.
The thing is, while the culls that Tom were talking about were
culls, they still carry their parents genes and some of the
genes were expressed and others weren't. If you breed some of
those so-called culls, it is possible to get some recessive
genes out (that didn't show/come through) in those culls to come
out in the offspring.
Just like a friend of mine who is 5'7". His mom is 5'9" and his
dad is 6'4". He is the shortest in his family and has 2 brothers
and a sister. His sister is almost 6' while his two brothers are
both taller than his dad > 6'4".
My friend has two boys, both in their teens. The older boy is a
senior now and is 6'3" and the other boy is in middle school and
is almost 6' now. Their mom is 5'2" or so.
This is just a real life example of how certain genes get passed
down and how some don't or how they do or do not show
themselves.
#Post#: 8947--------------------------------------------------
Re: George Mason: Agree or Disagree?
By: charles_b Date: September 18, 2011, 3:59 pm
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Is it worth breeding a Non roller. How many of his/her offspring
will be non rollers. I would rather breed good roller to good
roller to prevent the breeding of a non roller that eats the
same amount of food as a great performer.
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