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#Post#: 8471--------------------------------------------------
World Cup Proposal
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: August 7, 2011, 3:56 pm
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The following is a proposal that was submitted by myself ( Cliff
Ball, Southeast Regional Director), Joe Bob Stuka (World Cup
Champion), Clay Hoyle (Double Master Flyer and NBRC 20-bird
National Champion), and Jay Yandle (NBRC 11-bird National
Champion), all veteran World Cup competitors. This proposal is
designed to amend the WC constitution and By-laws regarding the
standard to be used by a judge during the scoring of a kit in
World Cup competitions.
Current WC Rule:WC By-Laws Section V
8) Integrity.
The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his
standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of
performance. This competition is for ROLLERS and not tumblers!
Roller flying is a subjective sport and the judge may have to
make allowances for extraordinary circumstances. In any case,
the judge's decision is final and anyone verbally or physically
attacking the judge will be disqualified from the fly and may be
banned from future WC events by the WC committee.
Proposed WC Rule Change:WC By-Laws Section V
8) Integrity.
The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet the World
Cup standard for adequate performance. The judge shall maintain
objectivity at all times. He/She will not let his/her personal
prejudices or bias to interfere with his/her ability to score
the kits objectively based on the WC standard as it is defined.
This competition is for ROLLERS and not tumblers! Roller flying
is a subjective sport and the judge may have to make allowances
for extraordinary circumstances. In any case, the judge's
decision is final and anyone verbally or physically attacking
the judge will be disqualified from the fly and may be banned
from future WC events by the WC committee.
Reason/Justification for the change:
Two of the most common criticisms of roller competitions for
many years, has been the potential that exists for extreme
variation in the scoring of the performance of rollers, from one
extreme to the other; as well as bias in judging, in favor of
friends, countrymen, or particular families of rollers. These
indiscretions are not only encouraged, but authorized by the
standard for scoring and WC By-laws as they are currently
written. With every World Cup competition, new and interesting
twists in the interpretation of the World Cup Fly Rules, based
on each new judge’s personal standard for scoring performance,
seems to pop up on cell phones, across the dinner table, and on
the internet. We are hearing legitimate concerns expressed among
veteran fliers, fanciers who have competed for many years and
who know what a break is and how to score it; who are
disappointed in the extreme variation in the scoring as the
result of the way WC rules are being misused and misinterpreted
by judges from year to year.
The Fly Rules state very clearly that the judge should not score
anything that does not meet “his standard.” The problem is that
we, as competitors, may not be familiar with each new judge’s
personal standard, and it may be quite different from what we
are used to, affecting how we have selected the birds in our
teams, and how we have prepared them for the competition. As a
result, we see scores that vary from one extreme of very low
scores, to the opposite extreme of very high scores which score
everything that moves, aand from the same kits and families of
rollers from year to year. These severe gyrations in the scores
are rarely the result of the direct performance of the birds.
Instead, these extreme highs and lows in scores seem to arise
from the variation in the personal standard among judges that is
authorized by the WC By-laws. One need only look at every other
breed registry in the world…and every other sport in the
world….to see how and why properly defined standards and rules;
as well as their implementation by referees and judges, are
essential to the successful conduct of competitions.
In flying competitions for Birmingham Rollers, the judge needs
to score the kits on the merit of the performance of the birds;
without bias, prejudice or agendas in mind. Roller men enjoy
putting their birds up. They enjoy competing with them. But they
will not continue to work hard all year long to train
them…sacrifice their best birds to the birds of prey….give of
their time and money…and then be disrespected by rules that
authorize and promote persona lstandards that differ from that
of the World Cup, or that may represent bias and/or prejudice.
A clear understanding of the rules for scoring rollers across
all borders needs to be a priority, so that misconceptions and
misunderstandings can be kept to a minimum.
With a WC standard for scoring in place, as opposed to an
individual standard, things will not be perfect and it will not
solve all discussions or controversies, any more than
establishing a universal strike zone has eliminated
controversial calls and discussions in baseball. No rule in a
subjectively scored competition can totally prevent a judge from
interjecting prejudice in his scoring if he is hell-bent on
doing so. But by eliminating the integrity clause and requiring
that the World Cup Standard be the criteria for scoring, it will
remove the temptation to impose one’s personal standard in favor
of friends or countrymen. With a WC standard in place, and a
requirement that judges are to uphold that standard, it will
give each flier a basis on which to train and select his kits,
and a basis on which to evaluate the skills of any particular
judge. As judges become diligent in applying the WC standard, it
will promote honesty and fairness in scoring, and eliminate the
potential for personal agendas and bias to have any impact on
the results of the competition. Eventually, judges will develop
skills and reputations for correctly applying the WC standard,
and we will know who we want to do the judging for us.
Most importantly, the use of a WC standard as opposed to a
personal standard will give the competitors a more stationary
target as to what constitutes scoreable performance. There will
be less guessing as to what the judge is looking for, which will
ultimately have an impact on the way rollers are bred and
selected for competition. We will all be on the same page. It
will help to end some of the frustrations over these particular
issues that are commonly being expressed each year with the
scores all over the board from one extreme to the other, and the
flier never knowing what to expect from the judge regarding his
personal standard for the performance of his kit until fly day.
If this aligns with your thinking, I am requesting you to
contact your World Cup Regional Director in the next five days
and let him know that you favor the proposal and urge him to
vote YES. We need all the RDs to get out and vote!
Yours in the Sport,
Cliff
#Post#: 8561--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: bman
Date: August 14, 2011, 4:37 am
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" The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet the
World Cup standard for adequate performance."
Help me out here Cliff, I have not seen anything in writing that
spells out adequate performance.
Other than the Judges's discretion.
Ron
Ron
Yes, that is the case and where most of the confusion starts.
If we can agree that the club standard should prevail over a
personal judges standard, then we can attempt to write out a
slightly more detailed WC standard.
Cliff
#Post#: 8563--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: August 14, 2011, 6:31 pm
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This throws me also Ron .. I honestly don't know where he is
going with this . There is no WC standard . Honestly I see
absolutly nothing wrong with the rules as written . In fact I
think that they are as about as good as they can get. Some are
just seem to want to change for the sake of change.
Scott
--- Quote from: bman link ---
>
> " The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet the
World Cup standard for adequate performance."
>
> Help me out here Cliff, I have not seen anything in writing
that spells out adequate performance.
> Other than the Judges's discretion.
> Ron
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 8564--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: donnie james
Date: August 14, 2011, 6:56 pm
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hay guys,
here's the problem how i see it theirs still going to be people
out there is still going to raise hell one or the other and some
of the judges are going to give a high score and other judges
are going to give a low score and some judge are going to favor
their country and some judges are going to favor their friend(s)
like i said before on here the judge(s) should take a test and
get on the same page and give them rules to go by so they
wouldn't favor their country or friend(s) i'm sure that the
world cup can come up with the test and rules for the judges how
hard is it to do this?????? donnie james
#Post#: 8565--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: samir
Date: August 15, 2011, 5:42 am
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Who is the one that had kit flying and performing better than
any other kit and Eric Laidler has done so bad job, awarding
only 30% of points to that kit?
Show me the video of that.
To be WC judge is a great honor and it does not come easy. If
somebody abuse it should be exposed and ashamed.
At the other hand if aqusations are false then those who
fabricat them should be baned from WC.
Samir
#Post#: 8568--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: oldguy
Date: August 16, 2011, 6:18 am
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Wingpatch, why in heck would you feel sorry for the winner?
Kevin must have flown an unbelievably strong kit to score 390
points under a very tough judge. I don't know if you flew or
didn't, but bet you wouldn't mind exchanging scores, kits and
placings with Kevin. Wayne
#Post#: 8570--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: August 16, 2011, 9:02 am
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That is my thought also Wayne.. I'm thinking that kit was hard
wired and as he had em about as good as you could get them
without much junk to sort through . My experience on judging is
that those that do the most complaining didn't fly much to begin
with on the day. It is next to impossible to deny a truely good
team.
Scott
PS Good job to you !!!!!
--- Quote from: oldguy link ---
>
> Wingpatch, why in heck would you feel sorry for the winner?
Kevin must have flown an unbelievably strong kit to score 390
points under a very tough judge. I don't know if you flew or
didn't, but bet you wouldn't mind exchanging scores, kits and
placings with Kevin. Wayne
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 8571--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: August 16, 2011, 9:07 am
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I would take a win with this type of judge any day over one
spitting out points that aren't there , not unlike like Bush
and Obama spending dollars that isn't there.
--- Quote from: wingpatchloft link ---
>
> oldguy, i am sure he flew a good kit and desirved to win.....
to bad he has'nt gotten the credit due to him by some because
of all the b.s. going on about the judging and such.... i hope
he does'nt let it stain the fact he won..........
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 8572--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: samir
Date: August 16, 2011, 9:15 am
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This is video of Ferid Catak's kit for second place WC 2011.
HTML http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7iTFkbXbtU
HTML http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7iTFkbXbtU
Samir
#Post#: 8573--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Cup Proposal
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: August 16, 2011, 10:09 am
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Guys,
The WC rules are open to debate. They have been changed or
updated in the past to address the problems as they occur. This
problem is no different....
Without a judging standard, every judge is correct no matter
what he scores or how he scores. If you feel we have judges
that are too loose, or too tight (one is just as bad as the
other to me) then you ought to support a little more "DIRECTION"
from a written judging standard. If you have NEVER EVER
bad-mouthed a judge for scoring too loose or too tight, then you
have every right to NOT see the logic in having a written
judging standard.
Cliff
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