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#Post#: 8016--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: wishiwon2 Date: July 8, 2011, 1:19 pm
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[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=630.msg8009#msg8009
date=1310144926]
Tony.. you can get pairs that produce a high percentage of
stable quality birds , the problem is getting a stock loft full
of them.
It takes no less than 3 years to proove out the true value of a
pigeon .. and they don't last forever.
Even longer to proove that the prodigy also produce. Click pairs
have little value other than short term. The key is identifying
pre potent birds that produce on most anything. Such pigeons
tend to also produce a small percentage of their like.
As for a quality 20 bird team. It isn't done in a single season
, it takes time to build , adjust , and build more. Than you
couple that with losses from over flys, BOPs and stocking it
makes it extreamly difficult to build a truely good team.
Scott
[/quote]I agree with several of Scotts points here
Alot of what is considered successful breeding is based on
short term focus, say 1-3 yrs. In my view that time frame needs
to be much longer to make a reliable judgement on say 5-10 yrs.
Click pairings are of far less value to me as are birds that
produce with a variety of mates (prepotent). Offspring from a
click mating have no more chance of being reliable producers of
quality than anyother birds selected from the air, whereas
offspring from prepotent producers have a greater likely hood of
being good producers, in my experience.
It is also noteworthy when a loft average produces higher % of
quality birds more so than an individual bird or mating or
familial lline. In my opinion, a good laft average would be
something 30-40% solid, stable quality performers. The other
60-70% would either have faults too great to excuse, be
non-performers or exhibit sufficient quality to justify keeping.
I expect my proven producers to give me 50% or better, with any
mate. Thats my expectation, what I get is usually substantially
less. I would be very happy if I consistently got 50% of what I
esteem good ones on a loft average. If I got that kind of
percentages I would be very tough to beat every year. As it is,
like Scott said, it takes a few years to build and maintain a
truly top quality team.
#Post#: 8017--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: Tony Chavarria Date: July 8, 2011, 1:19 pm
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[quote author=3757 link=topic=630.msg8015#msg8015
date=1310148216]
I like your question because I have stated a million times goals
vary from loft to loft. But based on your question it would not
matter if you bred the kits birds or not . Your objective based
on your criteria is to just get 20 birds that are performing
together by any means possible.
[/quote]
Hello LaRon, it leaves me wondering sometimes why some have said
or at least given the impression that it is better to breed a
higher percentage from fewer pairs as opposed to fewer kit birds
from more breeder pairs. Why should it matter at all, if the
objective is to simply have 20 quality KIT birds.
Their is no prize being offered for higher percentage breeders
outside of someone saving time, effort and money. But that is a
personal decision. When they start handing out prizes for
breeder pairs producing high quantity of quality birds, this
line of thinking would have some weight. :P
#Post#: 8018--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: ozzie Date: July 8, 2011, 1:23 pm
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Tony I really believe it is the lining up of the genes
consistantly that prevents a higher percentage of off-spring in
performance animals to be considered quality. In animals that
are judged just for their conformation to a standard to I think
you can get higher percentages of the "good ones"
#Post#: 8019--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: ozzie Date: July 8, 2011, 1:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=630.msg8017#msg8017
date=1310149192]
[quote author=3757 link=topic=630.msg8015#msg8015
date=1310148216]
I like your question because I have stated a million times goals
vary from loft to loft. But based on your question it would not
matter if you bred the kits birds or not . Your objective based
on your criteria is to just get 20 birds that are performing
together by any means possible.
[/quote]
Hello LaRon, it leaves me wondering sometimes why some have said
or at least given the impression that it is better to breed a
higher percentage from fewer pairs as opposed to fewer kit birds
from more breeder pairs. Why should it matter at all, if the
objective is to simply have 20 quality KIT birds.
Their is no prize being offered for higher percentage breeders
outside of someone saving time, effort and money. But that is a
personal decision. When they start handing out prizes for
breeder pairs producing high quantity of quality birds, this
line of thinking would have some weight. :P
[/quote]
The prize would come in the form of smaller breeding
compartments and much larger kit boxes. ;D
#Post#: 8020--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: Tony Chavarria Date: July 8, 2011, 1:51 pm
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Ozzie, without a doubt! ;)
#Post#: 8021--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: Tony Chavarria Date: July 8, 2011, 1:56 pm
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[quote author=wishiwon2 link=topic=630.msg8016#msg8016
date=1310149184]
Click pairings are of far less value to me as are birds that
produce with a variety of mates (prepotent). Offspring from a
click mating have no more chance of being reliable producers of
quality than anyother birds selected from the air, whereas
offspring from prepotent producers have a greater likely hood of
being good producers, in my experience.
[/quote]
I am sorry, I am a little confused, can you clarify this part of
your statement for me? Thanks!
#Post#: 8025--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: Cliff Ball Date: July 8, 2011, 8:41 pm
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Tony,
If the objective is simply to build a 20-bird team, I don't
think it matters whether your quality performers come from high
percentage producers or from lower percentage producers, though
it may take more time. from lower producing pairs. Quality
performance is quality performance, irregardless of how many
other quality birds the parents have produced. Guys with more
mature breeding programs will probably see them come from higher
percentage producers becasue they have tightened up the gene
pool and the percentages being produced in the stock loft are
higher. Guys in the first three to five years will see them come
from all over the place because they are proving out breeders
and pairings, and getting their best pairs together....but
stiill trying out new pairings that will produce at lower
perdentages. We all have those test matings that produce only
one or two good ones out of 10...but they can be darn good ones
and are of no less value.
Cliff
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=630.msg8006#msg8006
date=1310141937]
If the goal is to fly 20 quality rollers in competition,
consider why it should matter that the parents of those kit
birds be out of high percentage producers in contrast to kit
birds coming from a pair that say has to produce twice as many
to get the same quality 20 bird kit...or does it not matter?
MUST BE LOGGED IN TO VOTE AND VIEW POLL RESULTS
.
.
[/quote]
#Post#: 8027--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: July 8, 2011, 9:44 pm
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I'm one that isn't big on wasting time on quanity , been there
done that , very few lofts have even 6- 8 pair even worth
breeding. Most would benefit themselfs greatly by selectivly
culling half or more of what they are breeding.
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=630.msg8017#msg8017
date=1310149192]
[quote author=3757 link=topic=630.msg8015#msg8015
date=1310148216]
I like your question because I have stated a million times goals
vary from loft to loft. But based on your question it would not
matter if you bred the kits birds or not . Your objective based
on your criteria is to just get 20 birds that are performing
together by any means possible.
[/quote]
Hello LaRon, it leaves me wondering sometimes why some have said
or at least given the impression that it is better to breed a
higher percentage from fewer pairs as opposed to fewer kit birds
from more breeder pairs. Why should it matter at all, if the
objective is to simply have 20 quality KIT birds.
Their is no prize being offered for higher percentage breeders
outside of someone saving time, effort and money. But that is a
personal decision. When they start handing out prizes for
breeder pairs producing high quantity of quality birds, this
line of thinking would have some weight. :P
[/quote]
#Post#: 8030--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: wishiwon2 Date: July 9, 2011, 1:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=630.msg8021#msg8021
date=1310151366]
[quote author=wishiwon2 link=topic=630.msg8016#msg8016
date=1310149184]
whereas offspring from prepotent producers have a greater
likely hood of being good producers, in my experience.
[/quote]
I am sorry, I am a little confused, can you clarify this part of
your statement for me? Thanks!
[/quote]Tony
Im not sure what you're confused about. I'll try to restate it
another way, see if it helps.
As I use it, the term 'click mating' is one where the parents
produce an exceptional percentage of "good" offspring. The
mating is an anomaly, not the norm. For the sole purposes of
building a 20 bird kit, this kind of pairing may be great,
because it shortens up the search for top quality "product"
(kitbirds). But for the building of and maintaining a bloodline
of rollers, I dont believe this class of mating has any greater
value than any other more common mating.
I believe 'prepotent' birds have the greatest value in forming
and maintaining a bloodline. I believe that on a whole, like
begets like and if the parents are prepotent, then I believe
something in the genetic code allows the ability to produce good
quality roll to be passed on more readily. Prepotent parents are
most likely to produce prepotent offspring. I dont want to have
to try and search for a click pairing for each bird I put to
stock. I expect it to produce reasonably well with various
mates. In the long run, this is most economical in terms of
time, feed and effort, but requires considerable investment of
the same to begin with.
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=630.msg8017#msg8017
date=1310149192]
Hello LaRon, it leaves me wondering sometimes why some have said
or at least given the impression that it is better to breed a
higher percentage from fewer pairs as opposed to fewer kit birds
from more breeder pairs. Why should it matter at all, if the
objective is to simply have 20 quality KIT birds.
Their is no prize being offered for higher percentage breeders
outside of someone saving time, effort and money. But that is a
personal decision. When they start handing out prizes for
breeder pairs producing high quantity of quality birds, this
line of thinking would have some weight. :P
[/quote]I didnt read your original post well enough I suppose,
because we were discussing different things, building a good 20
bird kit, or building and maintaining a family/bloodline. I
guess I still am not sure what you're asking in your first post
about why it matters what percentage the parents produce to
contribute to the make-up of a kit ...
I havent heard of anyone saying that or using this line of
thinking about breeding percentages for putting together a kit.
I guess the assumption here is that somebody has the simple
objective of a quality 20 bird kit. Almost everyone I know and
associate with use their kits as a testing grounds for
furthering their breeding program. They go hand-in-hand and
build from each other. You need a good breeding program to
produce quality birds for a kit and you take quality birds from
your kit to use in your breeding program.
IF a quality kit is the end of the line, why care what
percentages the parents produced so long as the birds in the kit
are good?
#Post#: 8032--------------------------------------------------
Re: POLL: Breeders=Percents=Kit Birds
By: 3757 Date: July 9, 2011, 7:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Tony - I asked a friend of mine a few years ago (who claims he
is unhappy with politics etc) why he started raising rollers? He
is 61 years old. His answer was not to have 20 perform, was not
concert performance, was not winning any current contest. He
has, for the past two years, started breeding and flying for
what he enjoys and has come alive again. When you are a follower
and do things just because it is what is being done now and do
not do what you love to do you will never be happy. In all
honesty there is no correct answer to the question.
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