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#Post#: 7969--------------------------------------------------
"pretzel" breeding
DIR By: Paul Conway
Date: July 5, 2011, 8:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In the book "Keys to winning with Spinners" one of the flyers
interviewed mentioned his breeding style as "pretzel" or
"Pretzel breeding" with no explanation given. Can someone
explain it to me. Thanks folks, Paul conway.
#Post#: 7982--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: July 6, 2011, 12:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is an old post by Paul Fullerton from my original roller
forum on the topic. I think it is very informative:
"Roy,
How are you doing. Pretzel breeding is a "SLANG" Term that is
used in some breeding circles. Its funny because I had not heard
it in years until Brad Winnward used the term. I really dont
know if there really is a chart. ..because there are many ways
to pretzel breed and you would not have enough charts...LOL!.
Pretzel comes from how you breed your animals just like the way
the pretzel looks if you start at one point of a pretzel and
follow it until it ends. The pretzel starts at the top..works
its way down then crosses over then starts heading back up. So
picture a foundation pair of birds at the top of the
pretzel..the foundation pair produces offspring..that is now
following the pretzel down....then those offspring have
offspring.....and you are going down the pretzel still...then
you take those offspring of those birds...that is the point
where the pretzel stars heading back up....and then it
crosses...from that point you start your loop...at the cross you
can pick Aunts, Uncles, Cousins...
when you breed the offspring to those..you are headed back up
the top of the pretzel....then you take those offspring from the
AUnts Uncles and Cousins and breed back to the original
foundation and those are not the grandparents and could be Great
Aunts and Uncles too.....so now you are back up at the top of
the pretzel.....you then can head back down again and then make
the loop again.... again at the cross at the bottom of the
pretzel...
I will go to a pure Mort or Ruby on either side of the bird...so
at the cross on the pretzel I use it as the time to go back to
either side of the family the RUby or the Mort side....then I
make the bend and start heading back up..at that point I hit
whatever I did not hit last time....if I hit and Uncle then this
Time I go for a cousin.....now I am at the middle of the pretzel
heading back up...at this point I can go back to the original
foundation again......Or I can go to a great great grand parent
or I can go to a great Aunt or Uncle.....
after time....you start a new pretzel right in the middle of the
old one and do the same......that is just one way.....you can
make a big pretzel or a small one.......you can do the same
thing that I just did but when you head back up to the top..and
you are at the middle or the second cross in the pretzel...you
can either keep it tight with a cousin or Aunt and Uncle...or go
real distant with a super bird that may have your blood but only
like 1/4..and throw it in that loop and see what happens...if it
works out.....then you take those offspring and continue up the
loop back to the original grand parents....then head back down
again...Once I feel there is enough foundation in my
offspring...
I start a new pretzel for a new pair and pretzel them...the new
pair can be either of my foundations with a totally new mate..of
my same blood..usually a cross is what I like...I usually start
as a cross at the top of the pretzel.....and At the bottom or
second cross in the pretzel...I try to go back to either side
the opposite of the most blood...meaning..If I get to a cross
that is more Mort...I will breed it to a bird that is More
Ruby...
The key if you have two families is to start with the Cross at
the very top.......if you already have an established
family..you can start with birds that are related but distant.
YOu can pretzel breed in any family. >...REAL REAL tight
families it is hard to do and is not as successful....but all
you have to do is bring in ONE or two DISTANT birds but still of
your family....or a bird that is not of your family...and start
the pretzel...you just keep zipping in and out and crossing back
and fourth but always returning to the top....and you top moves
down as your replace birds.....you can start two or three
pretzels in your loft or you can continue pretzels off the
original pretzel and cross them and interlock them.
It is really FUN way to breed because you can keep it tight but
you are distant too...it just seems to keep a perfect
balance....if you look at some of my flashover peds....usually
you will see select bird numerous time in the pedigree.....but
there is no line like line breeding....The cock on one side or
the other is not the same sire all the way through....or every
other generation.
What I like is that you dont have to stress if one of the birds
you pull from your kit from stock ends up coming from something
that is distant or from your worst pair....you can just add them
in at one of the bends and crosses in the pretzel...if it works
you can continue on.....and get to the top of the pretzel...and
when you go back to the top or on the top swing...you actually
spread it out a little then bring it tight again at the
top....or you can bring it in tight in the middle and loosen it
up at the top by going to a great Uncle or Aunt....
The pretzel breeding system really uses Aunts Uncles and COusins
mainly and uses Grandparents, Great Uncles and Aunts...OR Great
Greats at the top. So there is no stress You just mix them
in...or you can start a new pretzel with a test
breeding.....Even if you have three pretzels going in your
loft..they are still connected....and can interlock. On paper
Pretzel breeding is a mess because there are so many ways to do
it. ...Most like the clean cut inbreeding or line breeding cause
it looks nice and is easy to follow....but to be honest it does
not matter...as long as you follow EACH INDIVIDUAL bird and not
he ped....the mess is as clear as day....with the Pretzel
breeding you still have to make tough decisions...but I have
ALWAYS had better success for a longer period pretzel
breeding....
Form my experience....lets say inbreeding give you 15 years of
breeding before issues pop up and during those 10 years you will
have a streak of excellent breeding it will peak and usually
start down hill.....Line Breeding has the same thing but you
will breed fro 20 years and you will have upswings for a longer
period of time of good breedings but you will not peak and go
down it is a constant up and down breeding experience and longer
streaks of consistency....the up and down come from the
line....you use same studs on many hens...and follow one
cock....so your streak will go up and down with how you
selections work.....
with the pretzel breeding it will be kind of like line breeding
but I have found you get more consistent breedings and higher %
of better animals.....and it last longer...you can breed on the
pretzel for a very long long time....you can breed a long long
time with the others too...but you have to pay harder attention
and it is easier to make a mistake.
Not alot of people know how to pretzel breed or stick to
it.....again the key to me is cousins and Aunt and Uncles....and
keep looping everything....Down, cross (NOT AN OUTCROSS), back
up, loop out or loop way out, cross back in and back to the top.
Pretzel breeding to me just makes it more fun and to me it keeps
the birds having vigor....they dont start getting depressed by
the bottleneck of genes.....You do lose the exact consistency of
inbreeding tight...because when you are at the peak of
inbreeding you cant be beat if you have selected
properly.....you teams will gel...but it is short lived.....that
is why you see lots of one hit wonders.....and when you are at
your peak....it becomes way to easy to put up good kits.....and
when it becomes to easy..you better start looking for the bottom
to fall out...most have a hard time recovering because they
inbred for so long with Success they are to afraid to bring in
an outcross...
and just a simple outcross and then start all over inbreeding
again..but most are so trained about inbreeding they will not
give in to the outcross and that is usually there doom...there
own human error. Scott C. Finally gave in and he said he is
trying some outcrosses....it will work you just have to find the
right bird....and then follow the good traits again...and build
back up. That is why you hear....lots of...it takes me 3 years
to build a good team...about every three years....well..that is
why....but again..there are good and bad in every type of
breeding....and there are dangers to pretzel breeding ...but I
dont see to many....I really dont think it is used as much
because....Inbreedi ng and line breeding is still
successful.....and it is easier to keep track of....and looks
alot better on paper....LOL...
I have heard how some breed and some pretzel breed and dont even
know it....as long as you keep everything in your loft and dont
bring in other birds...you dont need to..once you start with
some good ones at the top...you just keep on doing itt....as the
old birds get old......you just start the pretzel with your new
old breeders.....I hope I explained..it...... feel free to call
me if you want.
rock and ROLL
Paul
#Post#: 7983--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: Paul Conway
Date: July 6, 2011, 1:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Tony. A whole lot to chew on there. Some of it makes
sense, some of it doesn't, but will be clearer as I being
breeding my own generations. I found the comments about line
breeding and inbreeding very interesting and thought provoking.
The more you read the more your told that crossing in from
outside your line is to be done at your own peril. It's been my
experience, early on that your not often told that not crossing
into your family is to your peril as well. Thanks for taking
the time to find that old post! i'm sure it will mean more to me
three years from now than I can even begin to imagine right now.
Paul Conway
#Post#: 7986--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: Steve49
Date: July 6, 2011, 2:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Paul, your last sentence is the key, your willingness to wait at
least 3 years to see how your program is going. BEFORE you even
consider an outcross. everyone just loves the idea of bringing
in a super bird to 'tighten up' or increase or decrease
something. however, along with those goodies comes some
unexpected baggage. and its that baggage that could set you back
quite a way. like the old expression, "learn to walk before you
run" is very applicable here. i'm right on the same path, just
starting a new family with 3 pairs. i was thinking of calling my
loft, "Line Loft" to keep me focused on the importance of line
breeding, and not to abuse the lure of an outcross. some call
them experimental breedings. i don't have enough experience to
comment on that, but it would seem too tempting to trying the
offspring of some of those experimental pairs back into your
main gene pool.
--- Quote from: Paul Conway link ---
>
> Thank you Tony. A whole lot to chew on there. Some of it
makes sense, some of it doesn't, but will be clearer as I being
breeding my own generations. I found the comments about line
breeding and inbreeding very interesting and thought provoking.
The more you read the more your told that crossing in from
outside your line is to be done at your own peril. It's been my
experience, early on that your not often told that not crossing
into your family is to your peril as well. Thanks for taking
the time to find that old post! i'm sure it will mean more to me
three years from now than I can even begin to imagine right now.
Paul Conway
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 7992--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: July 7, 2011, 9:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
What ever you start with should allready have everything you
need in every area .. and then the goal is to up the percentages
of the best and crossing in anything even from the same family
kind of throws you for a loop.
My experience is that most that in a cross from outside are
downbreeding something to make what they have better. Which
pretty well means they screwed up somewhere or didn't have the
right birds to begin with.
#Post#: 7993--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: July 7, 2011, 9:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hey Scott, without a doubt, the better foundation, the better
things can play out down the road. But it still takes an ability
by the fancier to understand what he has and how to maintain it;
I think that can be the hardest of all.
For performance breeding, to intelligently introduce a cross,
the new bird must express a specific desired trait. Even then,
there are no guarantees that the cross will be successful as the
current set traits are now subject to the “pollution” of the new
gene pool.
The downside penalty for bringing in an outcross is the “lost”
time and effort invested in a cross mating that does not work.
The time put in to flying birds for up to 2 years and the
breeding of these birds and flying their offspring for up to 2
years. This can easily eat up 4 to 5 years.
The upside is the cross matings work and all the time and effort
pays off…happy ending…
#Post#: 7995--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: July 7, 2011, 9:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree Tony... And is why so many have just a collection of
pigeons and keep chasing a rainbow.
( But it still takes an ability by the fancier to understand
what he has and how to maintain it; I think that can be the
hardest of all.)
#Post#: 8039--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: Fhtfire
Date: July 9, 2011, 3:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with you guys on the time thing.
If you mess up you will not lose time. What we must remember
is that if you bring in an outcross that has a specific thing
that your birds lack. Or the pigeon is just a super pigeon...you
will should not lose any time or really affect your birds in a
negative way...IF you keep your hand on the pulse so to speak.
Picture this....I am breeding from 10 pairs right now. Last
year I brought in an Outcross from Chuck Roe. I did not need
and outcross my birds are doing AOK....but Out of all of Chuck
Roes birds there was one that I really liked when he flew. He
was a Tort cock. Man this bird was a solid bird all around.
Chuck Bred the bird for three years and produced some nice
birds. So when he got out of birds he said. "Paul I know you
have your own thing going...and doing very well....but I would
like you to have that cock you so loved...IF you want it.
I said HECK YES....WHY....I would be a dipstick if I did not
TRY the bird in my Stock loft. Guess what.....out of 8 birds
bred.......6 made the A team....4 made the original A team that
I lost to bad weather.....the other two were younger in the
B-team and are both in the new A team as we speak...the other
two were lost to whatever BOP etc....
The point is....he bred and bred well. He is on a different hen
this year and I have two of his offspring (young that just got
promoted).
Now what if he did not produce...No big deal. I would not have
lost ANY time. Let me explain why.
I am breeding from 10 pair or so of birds. If I bring in ONE
outcross how will that affect the overall production for the
year...IT WONT...here is why. Lets say I get 10 young birds off
that cock......and lets say combined with the other pairs I get
75 more birds from my main group. If those 10 birds dont do
anything have I lost time...NOPE because I KNOW I am going to
get something out of my other 75. So the time thing or setting
you back I just cant believe in...or I would be getting my ass
waxed every year so to speak.
If it does not work..STOP breeding it that simple. If it does
work then you are AOK. No worries. The laws of breeding should
not go down with proper selection REGARDLESS of where the animal
came from. If it hits that mean the genes lined up like a puzzle
and worked.
Did this cock improve my birds...No...it is just as good as
the rest of the birds I breed....not worse just as good and
better then some...it just depends on how you hold your tongue
while watching them..>LOL... But I DID get something that is
not as easy to see....TIME....I just added an animal to my
breeding program that improved the life of my goal so to speak.
It now gave me the crack in the door to allow me to use
inbreeding if I had to......with minimal ramifications...it
basically opened up the gene pool a little.
It is NOT taboo to open a gene pool if it is positive.....yes
the bird may bring baggage with it...but if it is baggage that
is in the trunk and I never get to see what it is.....then it is
not hurting my program...if you do pop the gene pool truck and
you see a dead body in the baggage...then STOP BREEDING FROM
THAT ANIMAL>..that simple.
The key is to never put a new outcross on ever hen or ever
cock...is kind of like morphine...you inject is slow and in a
timely matter. or else you will OD and start at square one.
rock and ROLL
paul
#Post#: 8048--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: July 10, 2011, 5:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Short version with pictures and pop ups please
--- Quote from: Fhtfire link ---
>
> I disagree with you guys on the time thing.
>
> If you mess up you will not lose time. What we must remember
is that if you bring in an outcross that has a specific thing
that your birds lack. Or the pigeon is just a super pigeon...you
will should not lose any time or really affect your birds in a
negative way...IF you keep your hand on the pulse so to speak.
>
> Picture this....I am breeding from 10 pairs right now. Last
year I brought in an Outcross from Chuck Roe. I did not need
and outcross my birds are doing AOK....but Out of all of Chuck
Roes birds there was one that I really liked when he flew. He
was a Tort cock. Man this bird was a solid bird all around.
Chuck Bred the bird for three years and produced some nice
birds. So when he got out of birds he said. "Paul I know you
have your own thing going...and doing very well....but I would
like you to have that cock you so loved...IF you want it.
>
> I said HECK YES....WHY....I would be a dipstick if I did not
TRY the bird in my Stock loft. Guess what.....out of 8 birds
bred.......6 made the A team....4 made the original A team that
I lost to bad weather.....the other two were younger in the
B-team and are both in the new A team as we speak...the other
two were lost to whatever BOP etc....
> The point is....he bred and bred well. He is on a different
hen this year and I have two of his offspring (young that just
got promoted).
>
> Now what if he did not produce...No big deal. I would not have
lost ANY time. Let me explain why.
>
> I am breeding from 10 pair or so of birds. If I bring in ONE
outcross how will that affect the overall production for the
year...IT WONT...here is why. Lets say I get 10 young birds off
that cock......and lets say combined with the other pairs I get
75 more birds from my main group. If those 10 birds dont do
anything have I lost time...NOPE because I KNOW I am going to
get something out of my other 75. So the time thing or setting
you back I just cant believe in...or I would be getting my ass
waxed every year so to speak.
>
> If it does not work..STOP breeding it that simple. If it does
work then you are AOK. No worries. The laws of breeding should
not go down with proper selection REGARDLESS of where the animal
came from. If it hits that mean the genes lined up like a puzzle
and worked.
>
> Did this cock improve my birds...No...it is just as good as
the rest of the birds I breed....not worse just as good and
better then some...it just depends on how you hold your tongue
while watching them..>LOL... But I DID get something that is
not as easy to see....TIME....I just added an animal to my
breeding program that improved the life of my goal so to speak.
It now gave me the crack in the door to allow me to use
inbreeding if I had to......with minimal ramifications...it
basically opened up the gene pool a little.
>
> It is NOT taboo to open a gene pool if it is positive.....yes
the bird may bring baggage with it...but if it is baggage that
is in the trunk and I never get to see what it is.....then it is
not hurting my program...if you do pop the gene pool truck and
you see a dead body in the baggage...then STOP BREEDING FROM
THAT ANIMAL>..that simple.
>
> The key is to never put a new outcross on ever hen or ever
cock...is kind of like morphine...you inject is slow and in a
timely matter. or else you will OD and start at square one.
>
> rock and ROLL
>
> paul
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 8053--------------------------------------------------
Re: "pretzel" breeding
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: July 10, 2011, 8:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MOTHERLODELOFTS link ---
>
> Short version with pictures and pop ups please
--- End Quote ---
:D I had to clean up the beer spray from my screen and keyboard
as I laughed too hard over this comment! ;D
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