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#Post#: 8044--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Fhtfire
Date: July 10, 2011, 1:48 am
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Paul,
It must be in the name...I have said the same thing since I
have started. I think the rules are poorly written and use lingo
so to speak that is well.....very unprofessional.
I too have raised Champion livestock and every breed that I
have raised had a breed standard (written). The rules are
usually highlight the standard...and when standards are quoted
it always mentions the organization and not the individual. I
could not believe that an organization like the NBRC puts on a
competition, but yet does not have a standard to shoot for and
the rules are up to the judge and not to what the NBRC set
fourth. The other thing that has bugged me and Cliff can tell
you....is that nothing is defined in the rules.....The NBRC is
well aware of the same issues in the rules year after year and
yet nothing changes. The E.C. could do it..but they made
another committee to go over the rules with minimal changes when
we have a committee already formed...its called the EC Executive
COMMITTEE......
I have also coached High School wrestling and was a referee
and let me tell you I know what a rule book is supposed to look
like when you have a sanctioned event. In California CIF (the
governing body for High School athletics) is mention in the rule
books elevedy billion times as the enforcer of the rules.
Trust me its like beating your head against the wall.....I
have never seen anything like it and such resistance to make it
better.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
#Post#: 8045--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: July 10, 2011, 8:54 am
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Paul C
You do me and Paul F proud. You have developed a very good
grasp of the problem in a short period of time. If we could get
10 or 15 more guys who see the problem as clearly as you do, and
they would get on the EC, we could get this ( Minimum standard,
Breeding Standard) done.
Cliff
--- Quote from: Paul Conway link ---
>
> Hi Tony, I do know there are written rules for competition
and have read them several times.
>
> Here's an excerpt that makes little sense to me. I understand
it for sure, but as part of rules for competition it makes
little sense:
>
> Next the raw score shall be multiplied by a quality factor of
1.0 for "adequate” to 2.0 for "truly phenomenal" based upon the
judges overall impression of the average quality exhibited in
all of the turns scored.
>
>
> I will say that what came before and after the excerpt below
seemed pretty good, BUT who the heck puts the words adequate and
truely phenominal (which is slightly different than unbelievably
phenominal or Inconcivably phenominal and of course a bit
different than phenominal) in compeitition rules. Can you
substitute "beyond excellent" for "truely phenomenol"? I once
had one of my managers give me staff evaluations with "beyond
excellent" in the comments section. I much prefer things to be
more qualified, and, in turn, more professional. "Beyond
excellent" has no place on a staff evaluation, "truely
phenominal" has no place in competition rules of any kind. So
now judges can judge birds from adequate to truely phenominal
based on what?? There is no quantifying of this by the NBRC at
all. it's all up to judges interpretation. Judges
interpretation will play a big part in things regardless, but by
firming judging criteria up a bit the loose and the tight judges
will come closer to center.
>
> Here's another thing that stood out to me:
>
> Integrity
> The judge shall not score anything that does not meet his
standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of
performance. This competition is for ROLLERS and not tumblers!
Roller flying is a subjective sport and the judge may have to
make allowances for extraordinary circumstances. In any case,
the judge’s decision is final and anyone verbally or physically
attacking the judge will be disqualified from the fly and may be
banned from future NBRC events.
>
> I believe that first statement in the intergrity section
should read, "The judge shall not score anything that does not
meet NBRC standards". The last statement in the Integrity
section clearly says, "hey, your at an NBRC event", BUT the
judging is not to NBRC standards, judging is to the judges own
personal standards. If it said "to NBRC standards" it would
necessitate that there actually were NBRC standards- right now
the NBRC standard is that each judges standard of acceptance is
the standard with too few statements quantifying things. Maybe
the only thing that needs added is what exactly is a scoreable
bird, but if your going to make things more consistent and in
turn more professional we need to shift the focus from
individual judges to NBRC standards/rules. This would 1.
necessitate the expansion of the rules or standards that are
written and 2. require judges to be trained to judge to NBRC
standards. Both of which seem like they would be a terrific
leap forward.
>
> I own foxhounds. The number one thing we did (PA fox and
coyote hunters Association) was certify our judges. We have a
yearly one day training the includes classroom
instruction/discussion and hands on in the field judging. This
training is based on the National rules, which are explained and
fleshed out. The core training is the same each year with some
additions to accommodate the folks going through the second,
third, etc time. Those folks going through it multiple times
take on expanded mentoring roles as they and we feel comfortable
and some of those first participants in the training are now the
ones that help run it every year. Unbelievable the benifits
this has had, both measurable and unmeasurable, expected and
unexepected, etc, etc, etc, Our Judges have now been invited
down south to the heart and sole of foxhound field trialing and
have garnered the respect of those folks because of thier
preparation and training.
>
>
> I certainly am speaking out of turn in terms of my experience
with pigeons and especially competition rollers, but, likewise,
am certainly not speaking out of turn in terms of competition,
judges training, rules interpretion, rules verbage, etc,
etc,etc.
> Respectfully, Paul Conway.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 8046--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: July 10, 2011, 11:33 am
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Paul C
And to make matters even worse, both the NBRC and the WC Fly
Rules contain the same verbiage, with the same ambiguity with
the same basic problems and a few other gray areas thrown in
for good measure.
Now, when do you want to Run for RD, either NBRC or WC or
both, in your region? Just think about it.
Cliff
#Post#: 8047--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: July 10, 2011, 5:18 pm
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Wings up, fast enough not to count the revolutions with the
naked eye without any glitches.. exit the roll clean and crisp
.. any bird that does not have this capability is a cull ...
pretty basic stuff and universal .
#Post#: 8050--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: SpinCity USA
Date: July 10, 2011, 7:33 pm
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We have been talking about this for years. Nothing will get done
until an organization with some vision and respect ( NBRC, WC
) holds some seminars and starts a certification program.The
logical place would be the NBRC convention in Vegas. There is
still time to pull this off for this year. Paul C is new and he
recognizes the situation. The old " that is just the way it is."
should not fly anymore.
Certified judges is a must if we want to continue to grow and
progress into the future.
#Post#: 8052--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: July 10, 2011, 8:25 pm
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--- Quote from: samir link ---
>
> Flight can be videorecorded and replayed by judge before score
card is finalized.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi Samir, I think in theory, this is a good idea, but probably
not very practical. It would add too much time at each location
and then you still have to deal with the fact that logistics for
taping birds might be too challenging to be of any real value:
height, weather conditions, Sun, viewing angles, equipment
failure and so forth. :-\
I think taping birds to showcase what they are capable of is a
better use of taping or filming...JMHO 8)
#Post#: 8054--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: July 10, 2011, 8:34 pm
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Scott
Well....that's a start.....but we need more details. Your
interpretation of what you have written miight be different from
some guy in another country, as we have just seen.
Revolutions fast enough not to be able to count with the naked
eye. This is very good.
Wings up.... How high?, how straight? X -A-O or H?
Define "glitches"....wing switching?
Exit the roll, crisp and clean.... Define crisp and clean. How
about "POP " out of the roll and follow the kit? I don't care
what the bird is capable of.... What did the judge actually
observe?
How deep?
Universal and basic to us all? How do we make it basic and
universal to us all?
We may need to work on this .... just a little.
Define your minimum standard where judging should START
regarding Depth and Quality. Wshat is the step just above a cull
that is still scoreable in your mind. We are drawing a line with
words, just above the line, is a minimum scoring bird below the
line , the bird cannot score.
Please be as detailed detail as you can so that it is
UNIVERSALLY understand pertaining to Depth and quality, both
positive and negative. We appreciate your input......
Cliff
--- Quote from: MOTHERLODELOFTS link ---
>
> Wings up, fast enough not to count the revolutions with the
naked eye without any glitches.. exit the roll clean and crisp
.. any bird that does not have this capability is a cull ...
pretty basic stuff and universal .
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 8057--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: July 10, 2011, 9:42 pm
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Cliff .. I think the worst thing that we can do is over
complicate it .. the min standard that I just described will be
scored by any judge.
#Post#: 8060--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: July 10, 2011, 10:23 pm
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Someone mentioned something about ice skaters and judging...can
you imagine having to watch 20 skaters all at the same time and
judge them? What a train wreck. :o
#Post#: 8062--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: July 10, 2011, 11:25 pm
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Not apples to apples Tony .. unless they are supposed to be in
sync with each other .. get a few out of sync and they show like
a sore thumb. Good teams of quality birds are easy to judge ,
others are very difficult due to having to sort through the
garbage.
--- Quote from: Tony Chavarria link ---
>
> Someone mentioned something about ice skaters and
judging...can you imagine having to watch 20 skaters all at the
same time and judge them? What a train wreck. :o
>
--- End Quote ---
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