DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Roller Pigeons
HTML https://rollerpigeon.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 7703--------------------------------------------------
Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: June 14, 2011, 4:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I brought this up before and I still believe it is the best
self-sustaining approach to developing the best most competent
judges over time. Paying judges a fair fee to show up and judge
a club fly will solve ALL the problems that get brought up
regarding judging.
The free market will sort out the good judges from the bad ones
based on their skill and abilities. Local clubs would benefit by
having a competent judge a phone call away. They know who to
call and NOT to call for said services.
Even with a new written standard and/or fly rules, competent
individuals will still be needed who would be skilled at
properly judging a kit of rollers.
A professional judge charging and being paid for his services
has a strong incentive to “get it right” based on the needs of
the club flyers participating in the competition. If he gets it
right and judges competently, he stands to please his customers
and be asked back. He benefits and the club benefits. He
receives a fair price for his services and the club is happy and
will use the judges’ services again. A WIN/WIN for both parties.
Through a financial incentive, the “judge” will deem it worth
his time and efforts to invest the time needed to acquire the
necessary skill and experience before he offers his services. If
he is not any good, the market will not call him back. If he
likes judging, he will continue on his own to improve his
ability until he has it right.
Over time, there would be a group of professional judges
providing the best possible services and experience that could
be asked for.
+++
I don’t think there are many who would object to Scott
Campbell’s ability to judge a kit of rollers. Let’s say a
Southern California club wanted to have a competent judge for a
local fly. Forgetting for a moment that Scott might not charge a
dime for his services, but let’s say he could use some extra
money to buy his kid braces so he feels it would be a fair trade
to hire out to judge the fly for $50 to $75 a weekend to pay for
them.
The question is, why would it be so terrible to pay Scott or
someone of similar ability, for offering what would obviously be
a valuable service to a club willing to pay?
The best of these judges could be selected and paid to judge the
National Fly and World Cup. This would eliminate the confusion
and provide a stable group of competent judges. Everyone
benefits.
+++
To initiate a self-sustaining model, the hobby simply has to
accept that this idea is a good one and express its willingness
to pay a competent judge and the free market (individuals) will
take it from there. No judging schools or seminars needed.
#Post#: 7707--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: June 14, 2011, 8:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Tony
Not a bad idea at all but....
We still need a STANDARD to start judging. Once we have, ONE
standard, and everyone knows, that standard, then we can sort
through the judges, to see who actually has the visual acuity,
depth estimation, knowledge and sense enough to use the rules
properly. I have seen judges who can only estimate birds rolling
by counting by ONES. If they can't at least count by twos, the
numbers in breaks will not be very accurate or large! LOL!
The baseball umpires are paid....... but they have a very
concise set of rules they enforce within the context of the
game...the same strike zone, if you will.
Our fly rules could use a few changes, to become a better
understood educational tool.IMHO Just because the judges know
what standard THEY are using, the flyers must know the same
standard also.
As a backyard hobby, I am just not sure we are ready for "paid"
professional judges, but it might be a good place to start.
The rules we have on the books are not getting the job done...
well enough. Just too many questions left unanswered. We can
definitely do better.
Cliff
#Post#: 7710--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Paul Conway
Date: June 15, 2011, 7:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
We'll as a newly minted NBRC member here's my 26 bucks worth:
Tony I like the concept, don't know enough about competition yet
to wrap my head around the postives/negatives to it. I can, I
believe, state that from what I've read (and I've been doing a
bunch- lots of archive pages to go through and other flier's
websites, etc) that first and foremost what amounts to the
standards that competitions are judged by needs to be expanded
and formalized, especially when it comes to the
scoring/non-scoring of birds, what's acceptable, etc. My
thoughts were that a NBRC committee be formed including
competition fliers, backyard fliers (yep, absolutely)
judges,regional directors, etc to first work on the publicity
and education portion of what is being done and why to the
membership as a whole. If people understand the problem, feel
like they are included in the solution, and communication is
maintained throughout the processs then a well thought out set
of standards will have a much better chance of being accepted.
Setting standards will still allow for individual styles of each
judge, but bring thier styles closer to the center (or perhaps
more accurrately,to each other). for instance baseball has a
clearly defined strike zone, but some umps are known to call a
tight strike zone, some an expanded strike zone, etc, but it's
within an accepted range. We can argue close pitches as to a
ball or strike, but the wrong callon a pitch that is not close
is recognized by all for what it is. I do believe that we
need to have judges training. Perhaps a session with some of
the more experienced judges to go over the standard with the
powers that be and thier fellow experienced judges to get the
judging to match the standard to match the expectations. From
there those folks conduct the trainings with the remainder of
the judges and judges going forward. We train judges for our
foxhound field trials here in PA- that way we do not have to pay
for some to come from outside our state organization to judge-
food, lodging and a stipend. Our yearly training for new
judges, includes all- the experienced judges doing the training,
the judges who now know what they are doing, but with less
experience teaming with the experienced folks to take a new
judge out in the field to get hands on experience watching the
chases and doing the scoring. Then when it comes time for thier
first actual field trial they team with an experience judge
again. Transferring the concept from foxhound field trials to
Competition flies might not be parrellell, but the bottom line
is that the PA fox and Coyote hunters association have
established a process for training judges that works- it creates
capable, comepetent judges that feel confident of thier
abilities and repsponsibilities. It also illiminates a lot of
arguing about the judging (that and an almost no tolerance
policy) after the hunt is over. What helps faciliate the
training of judges is a well thought out, well written,
STANDARD/RULES pertaining to SCORING and the hunt as a whole.
Go figure, right. What is NBRC process for training judges
now? Is there one? anyway, my thoughts. Paul Conway.
#Post#: 7711--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: joeb
Date: June 15, 2011, 8:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This is an interesting concept and might work okay on the
regionals but who is going to pay the freight on the big flys?
Take the World Cup where the finals judge basically gives up the
better part of 3 months of his life. How do you pay for that?
What is the cost? I guess you raise the price to $100-$150 a
kit. That works like democratic party economics, when you lose
30% of your flyers because the price becomes too high, then you
raise the price again, etc. Pretty soon you have a few elite
flyers paying a very high price to compete on a national or
international level. The concept certainly is enticing but how
do you pay for it? Just my humble opinion!
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 7712--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: June 15, 2011, 8:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Well said, Paul. Good analogy...and one that we will find in
most any sport involving breeds of animals.
Cliff
#Post#: 7714--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: June 15, 2011, 9:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The money isn't there .. as it is now many RDs have to come out
of pocket for some expenses , you raise fee's and you will loose
many of the flyers as many aren't that serious to begin with.
As it is there are few that don't take the job of judging very
serious , and those that judge by a standard aren't well liked
in many regions as many want a points driven game. Cliffs idea
of written standard is a good one if it represents to breed and
doesn't factor in birds rolling like culls. At the very least it
will help new flyers know what to look for and make them analize
their birds beyond just seeing a bird roll.
#Post#: 7716--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: oldguy
Date: June 15, 2011, 10:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Scott and Cliff. Rather than run this dead horse around in
circles after every fly maybe we should begin having a judging
discussion each year at our NBRC Convention. I think we need to
keep it simple. Wings up, break together, quality roll. Roller
guys can spend hundreds of hours nitpicking semantics and just
turn most flyers off. Most guys just want a fair judge to come
and rank his kit against the others in the competition. I think
it is incorrect that most flyers want high scores; I think they
just want fair judging. If we keep getting good strict judges
for our finals everyone will begin looking at their kits more
critically. Wayne
#Post#: 7717--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Steve49
Date: June 15, 2011, 10:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
One other problem is the small percentage of flyers who compete
out of the more than 1000 members in the NBRC.
#Post#: 7868--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Fhtfire
Date: June 30, 2011, 7:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Cliff,
I will get on the Standard in the near future...I am just
waiting for a new E.C. and a little bit of time to sit down and
put my notes together so that it is short and to the point. A
Standard is usually one page..no more or no less. I will be
getting input from many before I start and then send it out to
all for endorsement.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
--- Quote from: Cliff Ball link ---
>
>
> Tony
> Not a bad idea at all but....
> We still need a STANDARD to start judging. Once we have, ONE
standard, and everyone knows, that standard, then we can sort
through the judges, to see who actually has the visual acuity,
depth estimation, knowledge and sense enough to use the rules
properly. I have seen judges who can only estimate birds rolling
by counting by ONES. If they can't at least count by twos, the
numbers in breaks will not be very accurate or large! LOL!
> The baseball umpires are paid....... but they have a very
concise set of rules they enforce within the context of the
game...the same strike zone, if you will.
> Our fly rules could use a few changes, to become a better
understood educational tool.IMHO Just because the judges know
what standard THEY are using, the flyers must know the same
standard also.
> As a backyard hobby, I am just not sure we are ready for
"paid" professional judges, but it might be a good place to
start.
> The rules we have on the books are not getting the job done...
well enough. Just too many questions left unanswered. We can
definitely do better.
> Cliff
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 7878--------------------------------------------------
Re: Establish Professional Judges
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: June 30, 2011, 10:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Paul
I think we need a JUDGING Standard as Well as a BREEDING
STANDARD. I was very impressed in the depth of your Breed
standard.
Feel free to contact me personally any time.
Thanks for taking the time to work on this.
Cliff
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 4
DIR Next Page