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#Post#: 7655--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: June 12, 2011, 7:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It is what it is Cliff .. and will never be anything else, next
year is a new fly and a new judge.
Cliff , anything less is a cull .. why would you score a cull ?
are you saying that they don't come better than this ?
( 1.0 Q as just fast enough not to be able to count the
revolutions and high X style. Why would you need to adjust
that?)
#Post#: 7656--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: June 12, 2011, 7:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Cliff .. I didn't expect you to.
Scott
( I can't say that I agree with much of anything that you
posted here.)
It depends on how low that standard goes. As per the NBRC vote
the majority want a low standard, it also shows in the loosness
of judges that they seek.
(So are you willing to agree, to a written judging standard, to
help right the wrongs you are addressing?)
#Post#: 7666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: June 13, 2011, 8:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Scott
Nobody is talking about scoring culls...you always jump to the
exageration when your logic is questioned!
Let's use an Archery example.
Let's say the rules set the target distances at 20-50-100 yds.
and you prepare accordingly .
First Problem: 10X ring changes from 5 inches in diameter to 1
inch in diameter. Fine, you weren't planning for this, but the
target is the same for each shooter, so you try to live with it.
(The 5-inch target represents a loose roller judge and the 1
inch target represents a stricter roller judge.)
Second Problem: Let's say the target distance is not actually
what is called for in the rules...let's say the scorer changes
the distances to 50-100-150 yards. A little harder, but still
the same for every shooter. But now all your pin settings are
off.... very similar to the weather changes or the appearance of
BOP on fly day, or a roller judge that doesn't score 10-foot
spins, only 20-footers.
Third Problem: After you release the arrow, the scorer moves the
target 10 inches to the right or the left. Now the shooter has a
problem. Nothing in the rules mention this. In fact, the rules
allow for the judge to move the target depending on what he
likes to see. There is nothing you can do. It is no longer a
test of your skill. All you can do is hope that it all comes
together and you get lucky with the wind or something.
This is an example of changing the benchmark before a fly, based
on the varying individual standards of judges.....and no one
knows what it is but the judge. There are too many variables.
I disagree with this idea of yours in the strongest of terms.
The "BENCHMARK" is in the fly rules. If the judges are not going
to adhere to the fly rules, we now have a moving target.
Surely I have misunderstood what your are trying to say....
Cliff
--- Quote from: MOTHERLODELOFTS link ---
>
>
>
> It is what it is Cliff .. and will never be anything else,
next year is a new fly and a new judge.
> Cliff , anything less is a cull .. why would you score a cull
? are you saying that they don't come better than this ?
>
> ( 1.0 Q as just fast enough not to be able to count the
revolutions and high X style. Why would you need to adjust
that?)
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 7670--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: June 13, 2011, 9:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Funny you mention Archery as an example Cliff .. Many years ago
the NFAA tried a new target face with a much larger spot to even
the playing field so more could feel better about their score.
The NBRC did the same thing when they dummied down the 11 bird
standard that were written in the rules.
Tom Monson hit it well at one convention when he said. The
problem is that the "flyers" need to be educated.
There are some that even tout axel wingers and birds that don't
come out of the roll properly as being acceptable .. overseas
they consider these the culls that they are. We can snivel all
we want but the fact is we need to step it up on a whole
Also what you wrote here was pretty well on the money
( A regional qualifier may not have any serious competition or a
very loose judge or both and a three tier system would probably
weed out these non competitive kits...... Could be a bad time of
the year to fly the USA kits..... Could be that the years of BOP
predation has taken its toll.
After years of loose judging due to a poorly written fly rules,
we have a very inflated opinion of our birds?
Better than average rollers are few and far between, Better
than average kits, are even fewer and farther between, then try
to fly in NON optimal conditions and things can look real bad
real quick!)
Cliff
--- Quote from: Cliff Ball link ---
>
> Scott
>
> Nobody is talking about scoring culls...you always jump to the
exageration when your logic is questioned!
>
> Let's use an Archery example.
>
> Let's say the rules set the target distances at 20-50-100 yds.
and you prepare accordingly .
>
> First Problem: 10X ring changes from 5 inches in diameter to 1
inch in diameter. Fine, you weren't planning for this, but the
target is the same for each shooter, so you try to live with it.
(The 5-inch target represents a loose roller judge and the 1
inch target represents a stricter roller judge.)
>
> Second Problem: Let's say the target distance is not actually
what is called for in the rules...let's say the scorer changes
the distances to 50-100-150 yards. A little harder, but still
the same for every shooter. But now all your pin settings are
off.... very similar to the weather changes or the appearance of
BOP on fly day, or a roller judge that doesn't score 10-foot
spins, only 20-footers.
>
> Third Problem: After you release the arrow, the scorer moves
the target 10 inches to the right or the left. Now the shooter
has a problem. Nothing in the rules mention this. In fact, the
rules allow for the judge to move the target depending on what
he likes to see. There is nothing you can do. It is no longer a
test of your skill. All you can do is hope that it all comes
together and you get lucky with the wind or something.
>
> This is an example of changing the benchmark before a fly,
based on the varying individual standards of judges.....and no
one knows what it is but the judge. There are too many
variables. I disagree with this idea of yours in the strongest
of terms. The "BENCHMARK" is in the fly rules. If the judges are
not going to adhere to the fly rules, we now have a moving
target.
>
> Surely I have misunderstood what your are trying to say....
>
> Cliff
>
>
> [quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=587.msg7655#msg7655
date=1307924437]
>
>
> It is what it is Cliff .. and will never be anything else,
next year is a new fly and a new judge.
> Cliff , anything less is a cull .. why would you score a cull
? are you saying that they don't come better than this ?
>
> ( 1.0 Q as just fast enough not to be able to count the
revolutions and high X style. Why would you need to adjust
that?)
>
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
#Post#: 7680--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: June 13, 2011, 1:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Scott
Do I remember you saying that you actually voted to accept the
11 bird changes, the so called "DUMMIED DOWN VERSION"? If that
is so , you got NO room to squawk. Besides, you will go to your
grave before you fly in the 11 bird competition!
Personally, I believed that only men who flew in the 11 bird fly
should be able to vote on the 11 bird fly changes, but it wasn't
so. From what I understand, the wording to not score axle
wingers was actually deleted so that the judge could use his own
desecration as to whether he would hav to try to identify and
score wing positions. Since wing positions were not defined and
ranked, it was felt, it was best to just not address the whole
issue on wing positions...... AND THE VOTERS AGREED. So, it
seems to me that didn't really dummie them down. But as I
recall,neither of us was on that EC.
In any case, I don't believe that a majority of the flyers would
vote to score axle-wing rollers or accept the scoring of birds
with faults. I know I wouldn't. How can we educate the flyers
when the fly rules are not specific enough? How can we educate
the flyers when our own judges can't agree on many issues
involving the fly rules? ONCE the fly rules are improved upon
and these issues resolved, then we can educate the flyers;but
right now judging standards are a moving target. Then we have
this Benchmark issue to consider.
It is what it is and it ain't good.
Cliff
#Post#: 7682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: June 13, 2011, 2:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Cliff .. No I never voted on the 11 bird Cliff .. The 11 bird
change came about before you came on the scene I believe.. and
yes it was absolutly dummied down, the thought behind it also
was to try and draw in more backyard flyers.
Cliff don't misunderstand me I would love to see a good written
standard.. but the fact is many think that if it rolls it is
then a good bird.. others can't see good from bad.. it is
something that has to be developed and it doesn't happen in a
short time.
Cliff honestly it isn't worth getting all wrapped up over.
Every year is a new fly and a new judge .. and I will say it
again. It is what it is.
--- Quote from: Cliff Ball link ---
>
> Scott
>
> Do I remember you saying that you actually voted to accept the
11 bird changes, the so called "DUMMIED DOWN VERSION"? If that
is so , you got NO room to squawk. Besides, you will go to your
grave before you fly in the 11 bird competition!
>
> Personally, I believed that only men who flew in the 11 bird
fly should be able to vote on the 11 bird fly changes, but it
wasn't so. From what I understand, the wording to not score
axle wingers was actually deleted so that the judge could use
his own desecration as to whether he would hav to try to
identify and score wing positions. Since wing positions were not
defined and ranked, it was felt, it was best to just not address
the whole issue on wing positions...... AND THE VOTERS AGREED.
So, it seems to me that didn't really dummie them down. But as I
recall,neither of us was on that EC.
>
> In any case, I don't believe that a majority of the flyers
would vote to score axle-wing rollers or accept the scoring of
birds with faults. I know I wouldn't. How can we educate the
flyers when the fly rules are not specific enough? How can we
educate the flyers when our own judges can't agree on many
issues involving the fly rules? ONCE the fly rules are
improved upon and these issues resolved, then we can educate the
flyers;but right now judging standards are a moving target. Then
we have this Benchmark issue to consider.
>
> It is what it is and it ain't good.
>
> Cliff
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 7687--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: June 14, 2011, 8:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Scott
The 11 bird fly was mandated by the NBRC before I got here but
that was not the question. When the vote was taken to adopt
NBRC Fly Rules, after the WC first changed the fly rules, I was
under the impression that you voted to accept the NBRC FLY
RULES. Correct? Both the 20 and 11 bird fly rules were voted on
at one time, as I recall. I thought you once stated that you
voted to accept the fly rules but did not notice the 11 bird
changes till after the fact?
It's good to see you are looking at this with an open mind. If
you want to see a written standard, let's work on it together
and see what we can come up with. If you really want us to up
our game in the US , we need to write a judging standard, a
"benchmark" to start judging from. There should be NO NEED for
each judge to set the bar at a different place. WE as a NATIONAL
Roller Club, need to set the bar for our flyers and JUDGES to
use as a target. The NBRC CAN do better. (If you recall , it was
the NBRC that first deleted the 1/2 second rule and moved to
unison performance.....bef ore the WC!)
I believe the flying members want good birds scored by good
judges and we all want to know the rules to follow. I don't
believe that a majority of the flyers want sub-standard birds
scored. Sure a few may be uneducated as to what a good bird is
but if this is done right, it can be a great educational tool
for both flyers and judges. NO excuses, are you in or out?
Cliff
--- Quote from: MOTHERLODELOFTS link ---
>
>
> Cliff .. No I never voted on the 11 bird Cliff .. The 11 bird
change came about before you came on the scene I believe.. and
yes it was absolutly dummied down, the thought behind it also
was to try and draw in more backyard flyers.
> Cliff don't misunderstand me I would love to see a good
written standard.. but the fact is many think that if it rolls
it is then a good bird.. others can't see good from bad.. it is
something that has to be developed and it doesn't happen in a
short time.
> Cliff honestly it isn't worth getting all wrapped up over.
> Every year is a new fly and a new judge .. and I will say it
again. It is what it is.
>
>
>
>
>
> [quote author=Cliff Ball link=topic=587.msg7680#msg7680
date=1307988715]
> Scott
>
> Do I remember you saying that you actually voted to accept the
11 bird changes, the so called "DUMMIED DOWN VERSION"? If that
is so , you got NO room to squawk. Besides, you will go to your
grave before you fly in the 11 bird competition!
>
> Personally, I believed that only men who flew in the 11 bird
fly should be able to vote on the 11 bird fly changes, but it
wasn't so. From what I understand, the wording to not score
axle wingers was actually deleted so that the judge could use
his own desecration as to whether he would hav to try to
identify and score wing positions. Since wing positions were not
defined and ranked, it was felt, it was best to just not address
the whole issue on wing positions...... AND THE VOTERS AGREED.
So, it seems to me that didn't really dummie them down. But as I
recall,neither of us was on that EC.
>
> In any case, I don't believe that a majority of the flyers
would vote to score axle-wing rollers or accept the scoring of
birds with faults. I know I wouldn't. How can we educate the
flyers when the fly rules are not specific enough? How can we
educate the flyers when our own judges can't agree on many
issues involving the fly rules? ONCE the fly rules are
improved upon and these issues resolved, then we can educate the
flyers;but right now judging standards are a moving target. Then
we have this Benchmark issue to consider.
>
> It is what it is and it ain't good.
>
> Cliff
>
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
#Post#: 7690--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: Jay Knepp
Date: June 14, 2011, 9:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Cliff,
I admire your efforts to get everybody on the same page
....... my question is will a written standard get us to that
point without first getting the judges on the same page
concerning what quality is such as being able to distinguish
when a bird wing switches or does not finish the spin correctly,
how deep 20 feet is, what a 1.5 quality bird looks like, etc.,
etc.... In the past I did not feel that judging clinics were the
the way to go but I have changed my view on this recently and
now feel that we could have regional judging clinics and
possibly get our judges closer to the same page... Jay
#Post#: 7693--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: June 14, 2011, 10:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
No Cliff I had nothing to do with the 11 bird rule change and
was aware of what was well aware of what they were doing in both
the 11 bird and the 20 bird. They gave a all or nothing vote on
all changes that covered both flys,
As you know we just did try to put in a standard to go by that I
was a part of . It was voted down by the membership less than 6
months ago. If you want to pick up the ball and it is a true
standard of the breed I'll back you on it. If it forces judges
to score faults in the roll I won't.
As for the 1/2 second rule. I couldn't measure it so I gave
little thought to it while judging. I was glad to see it go away
because it was highly abused by some.
--- Quote from: Cliff Ball link ---
>
> Scott
>
> The 11 bird fly was mandated by the NBRC before I got here but
that was not the question. When the vote was taken to adopt
NBRC Fly Rules, after the WC first changed the fly rules, I was
under the impression that you voted to accept the NBRC FLY
RULES. Correct? Both the 20 and 11 bird fly rules were voted on
at one time, as I recall. I thought you once stated that you
voted to accept the fly rules but did not notice the 11 bird
changes till after the fact?
>
> It's good to see you are looking at this with an open mind. If
you want to see a written standard, let's work on it together
and see what we can come up with. If you really want us to up
our game in the US , we need to write a judging standard, a
"benchmark" to start judging from. There should be NO NEED for
each judge to set the bar at a different place. WE as a NATIONAL
Roller Club, need to set the bar for our flyers and JUDGES to
use as a target. The NBRC CAN do better. (If you recall , it was
the NBRC that first deleted the 1/2 second rule and moved to
unison performance.....bef ore the WC!)
>
> I believe the flying members want good birds scored by good
judges and we all want to know the rules to follow. I don't
believe that a majority of the flyers want sub-standard birds
scored. Sure a few may be uneducated as to what a good bird is
but if this is done right, it can be a great educational tool
for both flyers and judges. NO excuses, are you in or out?
>
> Cliff
>
>
> [quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=587.msg7682#msg7682
date=1307994972]
>
> Cliff .. No I never voted on the 11 bird Cliff .. The 11 bird
change came about before you came on the scene I believe.. and
yes it was absolutly dummied down, the thought behind it also
was to try and draw in more backyard flyers.
> Cliff don't misunderstand me I would love to see a good
written standard.. but the fact is many think that if it rolls
it is then a good bird.. others can't see good from bad.. it is
something that has to be developed and it doesn't happen in a
short time.
> Cliff honestly it isn't worth getting all wrapped up over.
> Every year is a new fly and a new judge .. and I will say it
again. It is what it is.
>
>
>
>
>
> [quote author=Cliff Ball link=topic=587.msg7680#msg7680
date=1307988715]
> Scott
>
> Do I remember you saying that you actually voted to accept the
11 bird changes, the so called "DUMMIED DOWN VERSION"? If that
is so , you got NO room to squawk. Besides, you will go to your
grave before you fly in the 11 bird competition!
>
> Personally, I believed that only men who flew in the 11 bird
fly should be able to vote on the 11 bird fly changes, but it
wasn't so. From what I understand, the wording to not score
axle wingers was actually deleted so that the judge could use
his own desecration as to whether he would hav to try to
identify and score wing positions. Since wing positions were not
defined and ranked, it was felt, it was best to just not address
the whole issue on wing positions...... AND THE VOTERS AGREED.
So, it seems to me that didn't really dummie them down. But as I
recall,neither of us was on that EC.
>
> In any case, I don't believe that a majority of the flyers
would vote to score axle-wing rollers or accept the scoring of
birds with faults. I know I wouldn't. How can we educate the
flyers when the fly rules are not specific enough? How can we
educate the flyers when our own judges can't agree on many
issues involving the fly rules? ONCE the fly rules are
improved upon and these issues resolved, then we can educate the
flyers;but right now judging standards are a moving target. Then
we have this Benchmark issue to consider.
>
> It is what it is and it ain't good.
>
> Cliff
>
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
[/quote]
#Post#: 7694--------------------------------------------------
Re: Considering Competition: Another View
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: June 14, 2011, 10:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Jay, The best way to handle the judging is choosing a judge that
you know will score them with a standard. In other words be
selective. The fact is though some regions choose judges that
make's everyone feel good
by scoreing very liberal.
--- Quote from: Jay Knepp link ---
>
> Cliff,
> I admire your efforts to get everybody on the same page
....... my question is will a written standard get us to that
point without first getting the judges on the same page
concerning what quality is such as being able to distinguish
when a bird wing switches or does not finish the spin correctly,
how deep 20 feet is, what a 1.5 quality bird looks like, etc.,
etc.... In the past I did not feel that judging clinics were the
the way to go but I have changed my view on this recently and
now feel that we could have regional judging clinics and
possibly get our judges closer to the same page... Jay
>
--- End Quote ---
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