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       #Post#: 7632--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
       Date: June 11, 2011, 2:28 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The only thing that sould be scored are those that meet the
       standard of the breed .. there is no lesser standard .. honestly
       a couple of decent pigeons doesn't impress me.
       What does impress me is a solid team of quality birds hammering
       hard rolling breaks .. this is what seperates the men from the
       boys .. It's easy to peck greatness and some grand standard
       above comp flyers on these forums, putting them up is another
       thing.
       Jon you pretty well nailed it , without being as competitive as
       I was for many years I would not know these birds or the breed
       as I know it . Couldn't have done it any other way. It has also
       put me under kits of nearly every top flyer in the US and
       Canada.
       It was same shooting competitive archery , competition took me
       to a level that couldn't have been matched any other way.
       
       Scott
       
       
       
       
       
       --- Quote from: Tony Chavarria link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Steve49 link=topic=587.msg7619#msg7619
       date=1307754856]
       > Tony, i think its time to forget what Pensom wanted, regarding
       individual performance, as today's flyers are wanting big breaks
       at the same time, not waterfalling. the sport evolves, and so do
       the flyers and their birds.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Steve, you are talking about competition rules, not the commonly
       accepted standard for aerial performance that identifies a True
       Birmingham Roller: "Inconceivable rapidity through a
       considerable distance".
       [/quote]
       #Post#: 7633--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
       Date: June 11, 2011, 2:32 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       
       Cliff, the difference now is it would much easier to bounce back
       in .. my stock is solid. Only because of the drive of where
       competition took me. But the longer my heads out of the game the
       harder that will be as times goes on. I'm realist.
       
       
       
       
       
       --- Quote from: Cliff Ball link ---
       >
       >
       > Scott
       > You said: I'm not as competitive as I was.. and it shows big
       time."
       > So why? You don't want to compete, you have lost that interest
       in flying? Your birds are crap? Or you don't have the time to
       put into the birds? No one raises good kits every year? There is
       some luck involved in this game.
       > Usually, a good kit is just a reflection of a good handler....
       > Cliff
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       #Post#: 7634--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
       Date: June 11, 2011, 2:33 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       What it takes Joe is the whole package. I havn't seen tumblers
       scored except by loose judges. I garantee you when you see a
       score over 500 points very marginal birds were also scored
       except for the rarest cases.
       You will also hear this same thing come up with the new Fall fly
       judge .. This guy won't fool around , that I can assure you. And
       trust me if it doesn't represent the breed he will not score it.
       
       
       
       --- Quote from: joeb link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Ty Coleman link=topic=587.msg7630#msg7630
       date=1307806208]
       > [quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=587.msg7627#msg7627
       date=1307765280]
       > [quote author=Steve49 link=topic=587.msg7619#msg7619
       date=1307754856]
       > Tony, i think its time to forget what Pensom wanted, regarding
       individual performance, as today's flyers are wanting big breaks
       at the same time, not waterfalling. the sport evolves, and so do
       the flyers and their birds.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Steve, you are talking about competition rules, not the commonly
       accepted standard for aerial performance that identifies a True
       Birmingham Roller: "Inconceivable rapidity through a
       considerable distance".
       [/quote]
       
       Tony,  I'm glad to see you still have respect for the ONLY
       breed standard we have and have not fallen victim to the comp
       standard like Steve and so many others have done. I thought I
       was the only one left that hadn't.
       [/quote]
       
       Ty there are a few of us around that won't knuckle under to the
       old english flying tumbler rules. This thing has gotten away
       from us, when the breaks are more important than the quality and
       depth of the kit we have digressed in my view.
       Keep em spinning
       Joe B
       [/quote]
       #Post#: 7635--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: Steve49
       Date: June 11, 2011, 2:36 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       JoeB, Tony and Ty, where do i say i don't want velocity or
       depth? i'm just saying i want my birds to break together, not
       individually. isn't the 11 bird for the individual performer? i
       think we should realize that a 20 bird kit is designed for
       larger breaks, and there's no reason you can't have your cake
       and eat it too.
       
       --- Quote from: joeb link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Ty Coleman link=topic=587.msg7630#msg7630
       date=1307806208]
       > [quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=587.msg7627#msg7627
       date=1307765280]
       > [quote author=Steve49 link=topic=587.msg7619#msg7619
       date=1307754856]
       > Tony, i think its time to forget what Pensom wanted, regarding
       individual performance, as today's flyers are wanting big breaks
       at the same time, not waterfalling. the sport evolves, and so do
       the flyers and their birds.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Steve, you are talking about competition rules, not the commonly
       accepted standard for aerial performance that identifies a True
       Birmingham Roller: "Inconceivable rapidity through a
       considerable distance".
       [/quote]
       
       Tony,  I'm glad to see you still have respect for the ONLY
       breed standard we have and have not fallen victim to the comp
       standard like Steve and so many others have done. I thought I
       was the only one left that hadn't.
       [/quote]
       
       Ty there are a few of us around that won't knuckle under to the
       old english flying tumbler rules. This thing has gotten away
       from us, when the breaks are more important than the quality and
       depth of the kit we have digressed in my view.
       Keep em spinning
       Joe B
       [/quote]
       #Post#: 7636--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: samir
       Date: June 11, 2011, 5:01 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I beleive that the Birmingham roller is developed by competition
       for competition and as such is the best breed in the world.  In
       the world of backyard flying you wil find other aspects to look
       for, where BR will fall midiocer.
       
       Initial quote in this tred can be aplied to 10 % of stars in
       flying BR around the world, who sucseed with diferent birds and
       circumctances.  They posses high EQ (Emotional Inteligence) that
       made them to chalenge their own work every step of the way and
       in a way compete ws. themself.  Posesion of formal education or
       deep theeoretical knowledge is of secondary importance.
       
       An example of this would be 2006 WC champion Ferid Catak (a
       friend) who is mentor to a large group of flyers wich will
       eventualy produce another champion.  Ferid works so hard on
       promotion of this breed and sport and he is already a legend.
       I read his book, fool of practical methods, not much of biology
       lecture.
       
       Most people will never compete, some will newre even try.  But
       only those who try will have a shot to stardom.
       
       I've withnesed discusions on competition vs backyard flying.
       One thing seem to be owerlooked; a competitor can always release
       his kit in the backyard for fun.  A backyard kit can't get into
       competition just like that without making funy.
       
       Competition at the other hand can be scaled to suit diferent
       levels and provide chalenge to everyone to acomplish something
       for their stage.
       
       Samir
       #Post#: 7637--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: joeb
       Date: June 11, 2011, 7:44 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: MOTHERLODELOFTS link ---
       >
       > What it takes Joe is the whole package. I havn't seen tumblers
       scored except by loose judges. I garantee you when you see a
       score over 500 points very marginal birds were also scored
       except for the rarest cases.
       > You will also hear this same thing come up with the new Fall
       fly judge .. This guy won't fool around , that I can assure you.
       And trust me if it doesn't represent the breed he will not score
       it.
       >
       >
       >
       > [quote author=joeb link=topic=587.msg7631#msg7631
       date=1307809262]
       >
       > [quote author=Ty Coleman link=topic=587.msg7630#msg7630
       date=1307806208]
       > [quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=587.msg7627#msg7627
       date=1307765280]
       > [quote author=Steve49 link=topic=587.msg7619#msg7619
       date=1307754856]
       > Tony, i think its time to forget what Pensom wanted, regarding
       individual performance, as today's flyers are wanting big breaks
       at the same time, not waterfalling. the sport evolves, and so do
       the flyers and their birds.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Steve, you are talking about competition rules, not the commonly
       accepted standard for aerial performance that identifies a True
       Birmingham Roller: "Inconceivable rapidity through a
       considerable distance".
       [/quote]
       
       Tony,  I'm glad to see you still have respect for the ONLY
       breed standard we have and have not fallen victim to the comp
       standard like Steve and so many others have done. I thought I
       was the only one left that hadn't.
       [/quote]
       
       Ty there are a few of us around that won't knuckle under to the
       old english flying tumbler rules. This thing has gotten away
       from us, when the breaks are more important than the quality and
       depth of the kit we have digressed in my view.
       Keep em spinning
       Joe B
       [/quote]
       [/quote]
       Okay Scott, I'll bite, who is the Fall Fly judge.
       Keep em spinning
       Joe B
       #Post#: 7638--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: Cliff Ball
       Date: June 11, 2011, 9:17 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       joeb
       Last I heard , depth and quality define a TRUE BIRMINGHAM
       ROLLER...... And the number of birds that perform together is
       NOT even mentioned.
       Perhaps the 11 bird fly is staying MORE true to the
       standard...... :0)
       Cliff
       
       #Post#: 7639--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: Cliff Ball
       Date: June 11, 2011, 9:22 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Scott
       As I look at the scores from 20-30 years ago, they started out
       LOW, then got way too high, and now it seems the pendulum may be
       swinging back to the low side again. It could be a combination
       of reasons; tinkering with the rules, ideas on judging changing,
       more BOP, what have you.....Simple evolution of the sport , the
       ebb and flow of changing ideas.
       High scores or low scores, the contests are to designed to
       evaluate the flyers and their birds, who wins, and whether the
       kits getting better or worse, and whether we are making
       progress. Makes little difference to me if the winning score is
       150 or 950 or 2000, it is just a number. It represents a judges
       overall opinion and evaluation of the performance, he observed.
       We all know it is an extremely SUBJECTIVE estimation and we
       accept it as such. The judge who socres kits low are of no
       greater value than the ones who score them high.
       We all look forward to the judge coming to score the birds, be
       he tight , loose, or just right. Besides, ther's not a whole lot
       we can do about it as long as the rules require the judge to
       score kits according to his own standard.
       Cliff
       #Post#: 7640--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
       Date: June 11, 2011, 10:35 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       
       Cliff .. I have not seen this to be the case at all .
       
       
       
       
       --- Quote from: Cliff Ball link ---
       >
       >
       > joeb
       > Last I heard , depth and quality define a TRUE BIRMINGHAM
       ROLLER...... And the number of birds that perform together is
       NOT even mentioned.
       > Perhaps the 11 bird fly is staying MORE true to the
       standard...... :0)
       > Cliff
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       #Post#: 7641--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Considering Competition: Another View
   DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
       Date: June 11, 2011, 10:39 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       
       Cliff .. that standard starts at low or nonexistant to on up ..
       those that score everything cheat the good teams on every break
       that they give.
       
       
       
       --- Quote from: Cliff Ball link ---
       >
       >
       > Scott
       > As I look at the scores from 20-30 years ago, they started out
       LOW, then got way too high, and now it seems the pendulum may be
       swinging back to the low side again. It could be a combination
       of reasons; tinkering with the rules, ideas on judging changing,
       more BOP, what have you.....Simple evolution of the sport , the
       ebb and flow of changing ideas.
       > High scores or low scores, the contests are to designed to
       evaluate the flyers and their birds, who wins, and whether the
       kits getting better or worse, and whether we are making
       progress. Makes little difference to me if the winning score is
       150 or 950 or 2000, it is just a number. It represents a judges
       overall opinion and evaluation of the performance, he observed.
       We all know it is an extremely SUBJECTIVE estimation and we
       accept it as such. The judge who socres kits low are of no
       greater value than the ones who score them high.
       > We all look forward to the judge coming to score the birds, be
       he tight , loose, or just right. Besides, ther's not a whole lot
       we can do about it as long as the rules require the judge to
       score kits according to his own standard.
       > Cliff
       >
       --- End Quote ---
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