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#Post#: 7159--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: Siddiqir Date: May 15, 2011, 11:21 am
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Try more peas and wheat. Milo keep the birds in shape but birds
when fly burn lot of energy which milo can not provide. May be
70/30 wheat/peas will do the job in heat. If birds fly low,
start cutting peas.
[quote author=Darrin Stone link=topic=534.msg7025#msg7025
date=1305151108]
what do you guys feed as the weather gets warmer? My birds were
flying high and around an hour when it was in the 60's no its up
around 90 and they don't want to fly very long.
[/quote]
#Post#: 7188--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: WhiteWing Date: May 16, 2011, 7:28 pm
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wishiwon2, I agree with you 100% that “It takes both, good
breeding and good management.” Let me say, I was a bit shady in
my original post on defining my standpoint on the values between
breeding and management. I totally agree that a good “bred”
roller can never reach it’s full potential if not properly fed
and managed. Breeding is not the only thing that makes a good
roller. I also agree with you on the importance’s of knowing how
to manage your birds through the rest of the care they require,
other than feed, neither am I for breaking down a bird through
weakening it. I believe I made that clear in my previous post.
It seems you and I see eye to eye on nearly every point, except
for one, however this could be with just my line of birds. I
have no experience with any other family. You said that you felt
that there was no grain or mixture of grains that could keep a
bird at It’s full potential on a consistent basis. I disagree
with you there. I feed the same grain year-round, only changing
the amount for certain conditions such as weather changes or fly
time adjustments. Any day of the week, 365 days out of the year,
I can tell you how each bird in my kits will perform before they
leave the box. The good ones consistently perform daily on the
same feed year-round, the rest get culled. I don’t hold what I
consider culls and try new grain mixtures with them in hopes
that they will turn into a better bird. I give my birds adequate
nourishment and care in order to keep them as healthy as
possible and in performing condition, the rest is up to them
genetically.
We agree on just about everything, our feeding styles are just
different. If I interpreted your post correctly, you like to
tweak feed mixtures and amounts to constantly search for your
birds top performance. My philosophy is that if I give them
proper nourishment and manage them correctly, then the rest is
up to them. I don’t mess around with feed mixtures all the time.
-Caleb
#Post#: 7192--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: wishiwon2 Date: May 16, 2011, 10:29 pm
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Thank you for your reply Caleb. I think you're right our
positions agree for the important parts.
You said you know what each bird will do before you release, I
believe you. It is a sign of knowing the birds you fly. You are
a student of your rollers. I am curious though, can you pick a
day in the future, say Saturday for instance, and have all the
birds in your kit ready for a top performance that day, feeding
the mix you use? I think there is a difference between knowing
what they will do and being able to plan in advance and
predictably get the result you desire.
The other question that comes to my mind as I read about your
feed regimen, is that if you always use the same mix, how do you
know they are at their best? I have no doubts that they do well
on any given day, but when you're trying to show them at their
pinnacle, how can you know what the full potential is if you
have never done anything different?
If they are like most birds, individuals will have some
preference in which grain they like best and search it out from
the mix. Different grains have different effects on performance,
thats fairly well established, though what the effect is, is
still a debate. So what I am suggesting is you may have some
birds that show well for themselves when they are eating Y & Z
grains primarily while other birds in the kit excel eating W & X
grains. When you select breeders it will be birds that excel
under different circumstances by the birds choices, not yours.
Like you, I want birds that work well over a range of physical
condition (including fitness and feed modifications). I have
flown birds that were awesome if you dialed them in just right,
but if you missed the mark a little either way in management,
they did poorly. I dont have those anymore. I want my birds to
put on a decent show everytime I fly, not great but doing it
right and entertaining. In addition I want to be able to manage
them to extract the very best performances I can from time to
time. This management change involves minor changes in feed
(composition and volume) and fly/rest time and creates results
in 25-50% more work rate, 25% greater depth and a moderate
overall improvement in individual quality. That does not mean
they flew like culls on the off days, just not quite as good. Im
not saying I can always get the very best from them, not always.
But I can predictably improve their performance in the ways I
just indicated, every time. Some of those times are near their
best other times a little less.
Im not trying to convince you to change your ways, or that the
way I do it is better. If you are enjoying the success you're
having then keep at it. Im just suggesting there may be more
that your birds can do than what you see now, if you're willing
to experiment a little.
#Post#: 7197--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: WhiteWing Date: May 17, 2011, 2:39 pm
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wishiwon2, yeah there is definitely a difference between
knowing what your birds will do, and knowing when they will be
at their pinnacle through management. To answer your first
question, yes; using the same feed that I always use, I can have
my birds at top performance on any certain day I desire by
changing feed volume and properly managing rest and fly times.
Pertaining to your second thought, it sounds like your birds are
natured much the same as mine. My birds perform good on any
given day, but I can also have them prepped to show at their
height of performance on a certain target date, using the same
feed. I agree with you that each bird when given a mix, will
search out it’s favorite grain, and that different grains
effect performance differently. You mentioned that, “When
you select breeders it will be birds that excel under different
circumstances by the birds choices, not yours.” Correct me
if I am wrong, but I took that like you are saying the best
birds will pick out the grains in a feed mixture that they find
palatable, and those grains they choose will help them to
perform at their best? I would have to strongly disagree there
because I know from my experience with other livestock, animals
always go for palatability, which would probably lead them to
fattier grains that would slow them down.
Continuing with what I just said, let me reverse the table. By
reading your posts, I assume you feed a mixture of grains? Since
each bird has his own preference of grain based on palatability
and will eat his favorite, picking over the rest; if you are
feeding a mixture, could it be possible that you might not be
seeing the best out of your birds by not strictly feeding grains
separately? I’m not insinuating that you are not feeding
your birds properly to reach their full potential, it’s
just a thought if you do feed a mixture of grains at once. I
know the general topic of this thread is changing feed due to
weather conditions, but I wanted to throw that in there.
I breed, raise, and cull my birds on that single feed
year-round. Is it possible that the birds I cull, might perform
better if I changed up the feed mixture? I’m sure it is,
but I do not desire birds in which I have to constantly tweak
their feed in order to reach their full potential. I am closely
breeding for kits of birds that perform alike on the same feed,
and the same amount of feed, not for kits made up of birds that
require different grains to reach each birds potential.
I can see how in one man’s eyes I might be culling
potentially good birds that merely need to be flown on a
different feed, but to me they are culls. I am breeding for
birds that perform at their best on the same feed, and the same
amount of that feed as a kit. Does that help to clarify the
method behind my madness? Lol
-Caleb
#Post#: 7216--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: wishiwon2 Date: May 18, 2011, 2:12 am
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[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=534.msg7197#msg7197
date=1305661197]
Correct me if I am wrong, but I took that like you are saying
the best birds will pick out the grains in a feed mixture that
they find palatable, and those grains they choose will help them
to perform at their best?
I assume you feed a mixture of grains? [/quote]
No thats not what I meant. Assuming that different birds have
different preferences for certain grains, the bird you pick
might be the best because it ate something different than the
rest of its kitmates. While on the other hand you may select
another bird that is best that has entirely different
preferences in grains to eat. Therefore you could choose 2 top
birds to breed from, both are performing well but because of the
variety of preference in the grain they select for, they
excelling under quite different feeding scenarios. So you are
breeding from 2 very different pigeons.
I do not give them feed as a mix, for this very reason. I feed
multiple grains, but give it to them 1 type of grain at a time.
For instance I feed wheat, when they are done eating that I feed
milo, then peas, then another type grain etc. It only takes a
minute or 2 longer. In this fashion, I know that as best I can
control it, every birds eats the same porportions of grain.
Which results in all the birds being on the same page
nuntritionally speaking. It helps in creating kits that break
well together because I dont have some that ate food which built
more or less strength/energy or causes some to want to fly
higher/faster than others. It also allows me to manipulate their
performance by altering the composition of their ration easily.
I still get some that eat faster than others, thereofore
consuming more than kitmates, and that is something I have to
watch individually. I have thus far resisted feeding each bird
individually. There are some of the top fliers in the world that
do exactly that.
#Post#: 7217--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: wishiwon2 Date: May 18, 2011, 2:23 am
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Getting back to the original topic;
I feed less volume in general. Approx. half as much in the
summer as the winter. I adjust the ratio of wheat and milo
closer to 50:50 and reduce the amount of peas. They have water
in front of them all the time except I will pull it a few hours
before a release on a competition. In the winter, it freezes
quick enough they learn to eat then get a drink right away. This
habit carries with them when weather is cool but not freezing.
Until temps range in the 40-70 F, they still do fine on one
drink a day. Temps over 70 daytime with nights 50 and above they
need multiple drinks to stay healthy. I do not want to fly a
bird with a crop full of water. Grit doesnt change, about once a
week.
#Post#: 7222--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: WhiteWing Date: May 18, 2011, 8:04 am
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[quote author=wishiwon2 link=topic=534.msg7216#msg7216
date=1305702737]
[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=534.msg7197#msg7197
date=1305661197]
Correct me if I am wrong, but I took that like you are saying
the best birds will pick out the grains in a feed mixture that
they find palatable, and those grains they choose will help them
to perform at their best?
I assume you feed a mixture of grains? [/quote]
No thats not what I meant. Assuming that different birds have
different preferences for certain grains, the bird you pick
might be the best because it ate something different than the
rest of its kitmates. While on the other hand you may select
another bird that is best that has entirely different
preferences in grains to eat. Therefore you could choose 2 top
birds to breed from, both are performing well but because of the
variety of preference in the grain they select for, they
excelling under quite different feeding scenarios. So you are
breeding from 2 very different pigeons.
I do not give them feed as a mix, for this very reason. I feed
multiple grains, but give it to them 1 type of grain at a time.
[/quote]
Okay, that makes sense now (pertaining to the selection of
breeders). That’s not how I select for my birds as I explained
in my previous post, but that along with how you feed your
grains separately; that’s a fair and logical way to view their
performance, if you have birds that perform at their best on
different grains.
I don’t know what kind of birds you have in your kit boxes, but
now if I were flying say two or three different families in the
same kits, something similar to your feeding regimen is exactly
what I would do to ensure the differences in feeding
requirements, between the families, was not neglected. Right now
I am concentrated on flying one family of birds. I am line
breeding them to make each kit similar to one another
genetically, therefore I expect them to perform at their best on
the same grain since their genetic make-up is much the same
#Post#: 7224--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: joeb Date: May 18, 2011, 8:55 am
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Caleb, Even within the same family, different birds have
different nutritional requirements and preferences. To prep a
kit for comp, Jon's method is very effective and as a recent
National Champ he has been successful with it as well.
Keep em spinning
Joe B
#Post#: 7227--------------------------------------------------
Re: how to prep a kit with warmer weather here now?
By: WhiteWing Date: May 18, 2011, 10:14 am
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[quote author=joeb link=topic=534.msg7224#msg7224
date=1305726902]
Caleb, Even within the same family, different birds have
different nutritional requirements and preferences. To prep a
kit for comp, Jon's method is very effective and as a recent
National Champ he has been successful with it as well.
Keep em spinning
Joe B
[/quote]
I agree with Jon on pretty much every topic we have discussed.
Im just a backyard flyer, mainly because there are no roller
clubs nearby. For what I do, my feeding and managing regimen
works nicely, that's not to say if I were flying competition
that I would use the exact same regimen, but presently it brings
out what I want to see in my birds.
Congratulations Jon on your National Win. Thats a major
accomplishment that proves your method is working out quite
nicely lol :D
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