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#Post#: 6596--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: Cliff Ball Date: April 26, 2011, 8:46 am
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I am of the opinion that using a stop watch to help train or get
you used to how long of duration a second , 2 seconds "FEELS
LIKE" is a good tool. But that is the extent of its usefulness
in my book. It is akin to playing a piano and using the
metronome, once you learn the timing , you don't use it when
playing. It is a training tool. Hannes shared hs stop
watch/depth chart with me when he was here, but like Joe said,
it seems to break down as you increase the time. I'll see if I
can find it and post it to get your opinions. Another thing
about the South African judging is that each judge goes through
a training and written testing procedure using videos and real
time observation with certified judges. Only upon successful
completion of the course and testing is a new judge certified.
The South Africans are way ahead of us in the US in that regard.
Such a program developes more consistancy in judging, and more
importantly, defines exactly what scoreable performance is so
that guys can breed for it. I doubt such a program will ever be
established in the US. We have too much dissention and too many
guys who think that only THEY know what constitutes scoreable
performance. The South Africans have a smaller population and
smaller regions that need to agree and somehow they have all
come together in one accord in establishing their goals. I don't
see thst happening anytime in the near future in the US....sorry
to be so pessimistic!
Cliff
#Post#: 6601--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: wannaroll Date: April 26, 2011, 9:55 am
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You hit the nail on the head Cliff. Myself I would like to see
everyone using
(3) judges and then using an average score. It would not only
give us a more acurate score, but you would eliminate some of
the favoritism as I think it would force the judges to stay on
their toes. I have seen judges that won't score 10 - 15' birds
just because they like deeper birds, even if they roll slow
enough to count the revolutions they get the breaks and the high
scores. :-\
#Post#: 6606--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: Cliff Ball Date: April 26, 2011, 10:46 am
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No doubt about it, Dave, panel judging is best. Knowing what is
deep verses what isn't, is good. But more importantly is knowing
what meets the MINIMUM of 10 feet. I believe most judges today
do not score 10 ft rollers. They seem to require 20 ft. I feel
the minimum distance, minimum duration of the performance with
the minimum score-able wing style and minimum speed/velocity/
revolutions, is many times more important that the
maximum/ultimate/ unattainable, ends of the scale. If all judges
just would all use the same "STARTING" point for scoring, it
would help tremendously. IMHO!
Cliff
#Post#: 6610--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: wishiwon2 Date: April 26, 2011, 11:34 am
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[quote author=Ty Coleman link=topic=499.msg6586#msg6586
date=1303788178]
Nick Siders had a scale he was working on.
[/quote]
Ty this is exactly what I pointed out in my previous post. There
is no, none, zero value in a scale. They are two different
measures. One is duration the other is depth. Birds descend at
varying rates, you cannot translate one to the other with out
knowing the individual rate of acceleration for each.
Change thoughts here;
[quote author=Cliff Ball link=topic=499.msg6596#msg6596
date=1303825616]
I am of the opinion that using a stop watch to help train or get
you used to how long of duration a second , 2 seconds "FEELS
LIKE" is a good tool. But that is the extent of its usefulness
in my book.
The South Africans are way ahead of us in the US in that regard.
... I doubt such a program will ever be established in the US.
We have too much dissention and too many guys who think that
only THEY know what constitutes scoreable performance.
Cliff
[/quote]
I agree with the training tool sentiment Cliff.
I also agree with you it wont likely happen here, but for
different reasons. Not because of dissention and arrogance, but
simply logistics. There are men all over this country that would
willing participate in certification but the problem is, they
are all over this country. We already contend against a small
pool of judges, willing and able to leave home to travel to our
areas to judge. Further limiting that pool by adding
requirements of certification adds significantly to the
difficulty of acquiring judges.
We all take this judging and competing too seriously. In the
end, you get your photo on a B class publication and a $12.50
plaque.
#Post#: 6612--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: Jay Knepp Date: April 26, 2011, 12:41 pm
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Ty this is exactly what I pointed out in my previous post. There
is no, none, zero value in a scale. They are two different
measures. One is duration the other is depth. Birds descend at
varying rates, you cannot translate one to the other with out
knowing the individual rate of acceleration for each.
Jon
I know what you are saying....I flew a hen that would go from
5' to 25' but the duration of the spin was always approx. 2
seconds it didn't matter if she went 5' or 25' .......I flew
her in 4 competitions and there was only 1 judge out of the 4
that noticed the bird that would spin for 2 seconds but drop
only a few feet.....
Jay
#Post#: 6614--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: Cliff Ball Date: April 26, 2011, 1:11 pm
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Jay,
And three out of four judges will not score that bird because
they are looking for separation from the kit. They don't have
much choice when there is a lot of action. They just won't see
it...myself included.
Cliff
#Post#: 6630--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: Ty Coleman Date: April 26, 2011, 4:31 pm
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[quote author=Jay Knepp link=topic=499.msg6612#msg6612
date=1303839685]
Ty this is exactly what I pointed out in my previous post. There
is no, none, zero value in a scale. They are two different
measures. One is duration the other is depth. Birds descend at
varying rates, you cannot translate one to the other with out
knowing the individual rate of acceleration for each.
Jon
I know what you are saying....I flew a hen that would go from
5' to 25' but the duration of the spin was always approx. 2
seconds it didn't matter if she went 5' or 25' .......I flew
her in 4 competitions and there was only 1 judge out of the 4
that noticed the bird that would spin for 2 seconds but drop
only a few feet.....
Jay
[/quote]
I agree with all of this to an extent. rpm needs to be figured
out in order to make it close. All familys are different in
speed and velocity, but The chart Nick has been working on is
pretty close to my family. I have been using a stopwatch on my
birds and my wife and I have been estimating depth, his chart is
within 5 foot of our calculations.
#Post#: 6676--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: charles_b Date: April 27, 2011, 5:05 pm
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After all the discussion on looking at the roll and timing a
roll I have a question. One bird rolls 20 to 30 feet in 2
seconds and another only 10 to 15 feet in the same time. Which
bird will you choose to breed from? Are we doing the shorter
roller a disservice by judging it by depth and not by the time
rolled?
#Post#: 6679--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: Cliff Ball Date: April 27, 2011, 6:21 pm
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[font=Bookman Old Style]
charles_b
The fly rules indicate that the judge can use either or both,
depth or duration to make a determination as to the appropriate
Multiplier[/font].
I would chose the bird with the best QUALITY, then I look at
the Depth/Duration of the spin.
It is all up to the judge and what he sees during his
evaluation. But the rules are written to account, for a birds
duration or depth of spin.
Cliff
#Post#: 6689--------------------------------------------------
Re: timing rolls with stop watch
By: charles_b Date: April 28, 2011, 4:18 pm
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Cliff,
I know what the rules say, but, there is only one judge and the
birds break does he see all the birds and judge them accordingly
or does he miss the shorter bird that rolls the same length of
time
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