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       #Post#: 6340--------------------------------------------------
       timing rolls with stop watch
       By: Steve49 Date: April 21, 2011, 9:32 pm
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       anyone use a stopwatch to time their birds when rolling? i've
       heard that in S. Africa, and possibly elsewhere, a judge is
       assigned one bird during competition and his job is to time each
       roll, and a scribe notes it. so, if there are 10 flyers at a
       flyers loft, each one is assigned a bird to watch, and time
       their rolls. I think this type of judging might give a more even
       score, with as many pairs of eyes as birds flying. In my
       opinion, expecting one judge to accurately determine depth,
       quality and the precise number of qualifying rolls by one kit is
       very difficult. I like the sound of this, and put it out here to
       see how others feel.
       #Post#: 6341--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: wishiwon2 Date: April 21, 2011, 11:37 pm
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       Steve
       i learned a little about scoring a competition this way from
       Hannes when he came as WC judge. It intrigued me a little partly
       because it was new and partly because like you mentioned it was
       less subjective.
       Then reality smacked me up side the head. ... I have never yet
       had 10 guys at my loft when Ive flown, ever. Most of the flys I
       go around to and spectate at have 4-6 ppl as a norm and if its a
       well known guy maybe a dozen. Perhaps in south CA it would be
       pratical, but for most of the areas/regions throughout the US,
       lofts are too spread out for a group as large as 10 to make it
       around to every loft to score birds.
       It was my understanding from Hannes that most of the fliers in
       South Africa live in centralized locations, within a few miles
       of one another. It allows more guys more opportunity to attend
       and score more flys.
       I have experimented a little timing the duration of birds at my
       loft. It was interesting and provided a fresh perspective, but
       in the end gave no more information than I already had for my
       own purposes. The one thing it may do is provide a more uniform
       comparison between guys concerning depth. If 'Joe' tells me he
       has a bird rolling 4.5 seconds and I have been timing my birds,
       that creates a more precise comparison vs him telling me 35 ft.
       We all recognize or ought to that depth estimates vary
       considerably between observers. It should also be well known
       that birds descend and varying rates too. One pitfall to avoid
       is to try and 'translate' duration into depth. They are
       different measures. There are several guide lists that equate
       certain duration with depths, they simply arent very accurate.
       Duration gives a better mental image what is happening in the
       air. It just isnt very practical for scoring a competition in
       the US.
       #Post#: 6354--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: Jay Knepp Date: April 22, 2011, 5:15 am
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       Steve,  I am not knocking your idea but my question is how
       would you do a kit that all or most of the birds are the same
       color? For instance both my twenty bird comp kits are all blue
       birds, mostly andalusian with an occasional blue check or black
       and eighty percent or better are self birds....       Jay
       #Post#: 6373--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: Steve49 Date: April 22, 2011, 1:33 pm
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       [quote author=Jay Knepp link=topic=499.msg6354#msg6354
       date=1303467355]
       Steve,  I am not knocking your idea but my question is how
       would you do a kit that all or most of the birds are the same
       color? For instance both my twenty bird comp kits are all blue
       birds, mostly andalusian with an occasional blue check or black
       and eighty percent or better are self birds....       Jay
       [/quote]
       
       Jay, for starters, there needs to be one scorer per bird, so
       yo'ure limited by the number of people in your region that are
       willing to travel. From what i hear, in SA, most of the flyers
       where this is practiced all live close to one another. as far as
       seeing the correct bird, there would have to be some kind of
       marker used for like colored birds. i'm sure the unique aspects
       of this type of judging would be a challenge in other parts of
       the world. But we should remember that the 20 bird evolved from
       a smaller group of kits, so things can change. You have to
       admit, one judge to watch 20 very active rollers has his work
       cut out for him. when you factor in depth, its almost impossible
       to get a true measurement w/o some kind of assistance. Plus,
       with a timed roll, we would now have a tool for comparison. Hey,
       maybe we should just start timing the birds during competition
       as an experiment, noting that its only a trial and not for
       scoring. after a period of time/adjustment, we can evaluate its
       effectiveness as a tool.
       #Post#: 6437--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: charles_b Date: April 23, 2011, 1:40 pm
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       In South Africa the 12 Bird kits will be Judged by a number of
       judges and the scores will be added and an average will be used.
       The highest and lowest judged scores will not count. The kit
       will have one specific bird that is nominated by owner and this
       bird will be flown the whole season as a "Best Bird" that is a
       competition on it's own. Best bird will be judged with
       stopwatch.
       #Post#: 6445--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: joeb Date: April 23, 2011, 2:29 pm
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       charles_b, panel judging is a very good concept on a local level
       but the expense of doing that on a national or global basis is
       prohibitive. We used panel judging on our local flys years ago
       and it worked well. Not surprisingly, the scores were rarely
       very far apart.  ;D
       Keep em spinning
       Joe
       #Post#: 6446--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 23, 2011, 2:42 pm
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       I just know what is deep verses what isn't by experiance .. I'f
       I dirctly under them though it can be a little decieving and I
       might throw a count on them just to check myself.. no time to
       fumble with a stop watch though.. just doesn't make sence to me.
       #Post#: 6447--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: charles_b Date: April 23, 2011, 3:18 pm
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       Not all the birds were timed with stop watch. The best bird has
       to roll 1.5 sec. minimum. It had to open in the same direction
       as it was flying and the roll had to be good style for the bird
       to get scored. The other birds were scored by the roll being
       judged by "experience" as you said. Having more than one judge
       for the kit helps keep the scores honest and gives more members
       the opportunity to gain experience in judging.
       #Post#: 6586--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: Ty Coleman Date: April 25, 2011, 10:22 pm
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       Nick Siders had a  scale he was working on.
       #Post#: 6591--------------------------------------------------
       Re: timing rolls with stop watch
       By: joeb Date: April 26, 2011, 7:29 am
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       Ty,
       That scale that Hannes used was pure BS. That was for an
       inanimate object accelerating thru a vacuum to achieve terminal
       velocity!
       Keep em spinning
       Joe B
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