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#Post#: 5924--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: oldfart Date: April 4, 2011, 8:11 pm
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Line/breeding is the steady path of baby steps. Correcting
faults and improving each generation slightly means a commitment
to the loft, not the bird. Chasing the fabled "new blood" will
not improve your strain but instead hinder it's progress. Most
lofts contain every bird needed to excel but the lore of instant
success is just too strong. The term "best to best" is used but
balance within a close nit family is my goal. I want my birds to
respond to changes as a kit, not as individuals. Ultimately no
one bird will be indispensable but all birds become equal within
the loft structure.
Take care my friends
Thom
#Post#: 5931--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: joeb Date: April 5, 2011, 8:03 am
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Very well said Thom. You are correct, close linebreeding
requires committment and patience but it is the most likely path
to success!
Keep em spinning
Joe
#Post#: 10088--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: scott70 Date: December 1, 2011, 9:00 am
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Lets say I am starting out with a new family of birds and find
some one with realy good stock how many birds would you guys get
to start this family out to be able to line breed and not get to
tight.
This will help all of us new guys out on starting with a family
for our selfs so we dont run out and get to many to start with
#Post#: 10093--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: 2y4life Date: December 1, 2011, 9:18 am
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If you want to raise a quality, and I mean QUALITY, kit of
birds, I will tell you the best advice I got.
Find the BEST BIRDS YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON that are out of
the same family and breed the heck out of them and use fosters.
Starting out, don't breed from alot of pairs, rather breed alot
from A FEW PAIRS, and use fosters. Then line breed back and keep
doing that. It will still take patience and a few years to get
what you really want.
Another strategy I was given by a Master Flyer and a guy who
knows what he's talking about was to find the two or four best
birds possible, related or not. Then breed that one or two pair
and use a ton of fosters. Eventually, after a few years if you
select right, you will have really created your own line with
the gene pool will become tighter and tighter.
Just to let you know, right now all I have are 5 breeding pairs
and that's all I want because these 5 pairs I KNOW HAVE THE
GOODS. It's up to me to see if I can get the goods out of them.
I could have up to 15 pairs by now if I wanted but I chose to be
selective and resist the temptation of collecting birds from
everywhere...hoping it will pay off.
This goes back to the original post about how to get what you
want out of birds, here's the analogy I used when people say
"Why can't I just breed a 20' with a 40' to get a 30' roller?"
Here's a bizarre and wacky but easy to understand example.
Let's say this is humans we're talking about and let's make this
height to simplify things. I have a 7 footer and 3 footer and I
am a wacky scientist that wants 6 feet tall children. These two
people marry and have 10 kids and there kids will be all over
the place. Some will be around 3'-4' and others 6'-7' and a few
5'ers. Some might be a little taller, others might be a little
shorter. I have the kids "breed" with other people of desired
height but now the grandkids come out even more varied.I
actually did not get any closer to my goal of "breeding 6' tall
people".
Let's say scientist B says I've seen what Tou did and he didn't
get his 6' children. Instead of wasting time with this 3 footers
and 7 footers, he just finds two random people who are
approximately 5'10-6'2". This guy "breeds" 10 kids and he gets
kids ranging from like 5'5" to 6'5" and he doesn't get it.
Common sense (without actually thinking it through) says that
scientist B should've gotten kids who were about 5'10-6'2 so how
come this human pair had kids that were 5'5" and some that were
6'5"? It doesn't make sense to the scientist who was using his
common sense.
Scientist C looks at what Tou did and what Scientist B did and
says, Tou's strategy was awful because the gene pool was just
far too large and I could spend my entire lifetime and still not
get the gene pool tight enough to get a bunch of decent 6'ers.
Scientist C says scientist B's strategy seemed to make sense but
what went wrong? He noticed that scientist B just got two random
people who "fit" what he was looking for and assumed the height
would give him what he wanted. What scientist B didn't take into
consideration was that his two "breeders" has a broad gene pool
in terms of height as well. By that I mean that while B's human
breeders were between 5'10" and 6'2", their parents and siblings
were of various heights ranging as much as 6' inches.
Scientist C decides that it is best if he actually looks for
human "breeders" that are about 5'10"-6'2" as well BUT he must
also make sure that parents of these breeders are also around
that range along with the siblings. So scientist C finds two
human specimens that are about 5'10-6'2" and their parents,
siblings, aunts, uncles and grandparents ARE ALSO ALL ABOUT
5'10-6'2". He "breeds" 10 kids out of these two and what he
realizes is that he's progressed on what Tou and scientist B
did. 8 of his 10 kids are at least within an inch or two of 6'.
Like I said, wacky example but putting it in human terminology
may work a little better as an explanation. You can't just put
two birds together and expect to get something in-between
CONSISTENTLY. What we are aiming for, as pigeon breeders, is to
get as many consistent birds as possible (whether it be kitting,
breaking for turns, depth, velocity, style etc) and our
percentage goes up when our gene pool is tight instead of having
a gene pool that ranges from stiff to rolldown.
Hope that made some sense and again, this is just a REALLY
SIMPLE analogy and is not EXACTLY what the science would
actually be like but it is along these lines.
#Post#: 10108--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: raul carreiro Date: December 1, 2011, 2:41 pm
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2y4life, I never heard it explained like that ;D
#Post#: 10109--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: scott70 Date: December 1, 2011, 2:48 pm
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2y4life has a great way of puting things for others to
understand I never could have put that one together but it makes
a good point
#Post#: 10118--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: 2y4life Date: December 2, 2011, 7:04 am
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Thanks Scott and Raul. I know there are still many that think
that you can just stick two birds together and get what you want
but it doesn't work that way. There's a fallacy in that kind of
logic, kinda like putting a stiff with a rolldown and getting a
good roller.
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