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#Post#: 5899--------------------------------------------------
Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: n00bR0113rs Date: April 4, 2011, 9:57 am
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As families of rollers differs. Which bird do you guys breed
together to get what you guys want? Meaning who to pair up if u
want a deeper bird, frequent rolls, or even control on the roll,
and etc..Does gender matter when pairing a bird that has
control(female) with a male that has control and vice versa. I
know its a long process that we all are trying to make better
birds. Help us or just me a newbie from making mistakes that who
have made in the past, so we all can make better birds to our
liking.
Pigeon people are the BEST!!
Xee
#Post#: 5901--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: joeb Date: April 4, 2011, 10:08 am
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I breed for velocity and style and accept whatever depth that
brings as long as it is 15' or more. My favorite pairing is a
half-brother to half-sister pairing as long as both of them have
the goods. Don't like outcrosses unless they are purposeful,
e.g. trying to add something the family doesn't have already.
#Post#: 5902--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: WhiteWing Date: April 4, 2011, 10:09 am
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I would really like to hear from some of the roller men who are
more experienced than myself on this topic. Like xee just
mentioned, wether or not it makes a difference if you breed a
male holding a certain desired trait to a good female, or if
that trait will come out better if you select a hen that more
closely resembles what you are looking for, for pairing to a
good male. With my experience in raising and showing livestock,
the male does have a greater impact on the offspring, but I have
not yet noticed a similar trend in pigeons yet, but maybe an old
head on here can tell us from experience. Good post xee!
#Post#: 5910--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: joeb Date: April 4, 2011, 1:14 pm
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Personally, I think you can breed around a hen as well as a
cock. If the youngsters from a pairing have the right stuff
after 2 yrs of flying then breed the best young cock back to the
hen you are breeding around or the opposite if you are breeding
around a cock. Then in the next generation breed half brother to
half sister assuming they have the goods. There is no quick or
easy solution to this. May take 5 or 6 years to get to a point
where you are happy with the result. Resist bringing in any out
crosses and be patient! Once you start this process, you have to
cull hard or you will be spinning your wheels. Good luck!!
Keep em spinning
Joe
#Post#: 5913--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: Cliff Ball Date: April 4, 2011, 2:22 pm
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Xee/Whitewing,
I tend to line breed from the best of a line back to the
opposite sex parent or half brother/half sister matings. Since
all my birds are related, sometimes I will cross two lines
(cousins) if I notice particular qualities that I want to blend.
I stay away from trying to "improve faults" through certain
pairings...like a deep bird to a shallow roller, or a fast
roller to a slow roller. Cull the shallow and slow rollers and
move on. Pick birds that are doing it right to begin with. I
will breed from deep hens to keep the depth in the family
because breeding from deep cocks tends to produce bumpers and
rolldowns in my family.
Cliff
#Post#: 5917--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: Steve49 Date: April 4, 2011, 3:10 pm
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perhaps this should be in a new thread, but since breeding two
20' rollers who are almost identical in every way doesn't
usually beget more of the same, what rule is the most important
to follow?
#Post#: 5918--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: Cliff Ball Date: April 4, 2011, 3:35 pm
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Steve,
In my experience, the probability of two 20 ft rollers begetting
more of the same is a matter of percentages, and those
percentages vary directly with the degree of homozygosity in the
gene pool for the genetic attributes that create a 20 ft roller.
If either or both of the parents is a 20 ft. roller because of
the chance alignment of a relative few "20 ft genes" from a
diverse background (a wide gene pool) then the percentages of 20
footers in the offspring will be lower. If the parents are from
a highly linebred line of 20+ footers from the same family, then
I can count on a high percentage of offspring being 20 footers.
Same goes with any other attribute, either positive or negative.
If it is present in the parent birds because of a chance
alignment from a broad gene pool, then the chance of throwing it
in the progeny is lower. If it is present in the line of
succession in the ancestry, then it will be inherited in higher
percentages. The problem that I see is that so many families of
rollers have been crossed with so many other families that the
gene pools are wide open in these families so the results are
tremendously variable. Those families that have been bred
tighter tend to have higher percentages of the certain
performance traits that are common to that line...again, be they
positive or negative. From veteran breeders and competitiors
that have been breeding for 30 years or more, if they have a
family where they have crossed many families to create their
own, I tend to hear them complaining that their good birds do
not produce high percentages for them. They are now recommending
that we keep a line of the family straight and pure without
family outcrosses....play with that on the side as a "project".
Cliff
#Post#: 5919--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: oldfart Date: April 4, 2011, 3:52 pm
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Thank you Cliff! I have been trying to say that for years but
could never find the words with such direct elegance.
Take care my friend
Thom
#Post#: 5922--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: Steve49 Date: April 4, 2011, 6:16 pm
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Cliff, thanx for the very detailed explanation. this topic has
been on my mind lately because i'm beginning my breeding program
for the first time in over 30years. I've decided to line breed,
as i think it will give me the best chance to discover what my
birds are capable of reproducing. all my birds were acquired as
squeakers and i've flown them for the last two years, adding
some last year too. inbreeding seems better suited to those
who've had the same birds for years, and can expect more
consistent results.
i think the hardest thing to learn is what and when to cull.
when you spoke about not breeding to fix a fault, but rather to
breed to enhance good qualities I realized that i could probably
get rid of all my birds. i say that because they all have
faults, and how can i expect success if i'm starting out with
birds who have flaws? I am trying to convince myself that unless
i have patience, i'll keep making excuses and not remove birds
who are not going to help me move forward.
[quote author=Cliff Ball link=topic=469.msg5918#msg5918
date=1301949317]
Steve,
In my experience, the probability of two 20 ft rollers begetting
more of the same is a matter of percentages, and those
percentages vary directly with the degree of homozygosity in the
gene pool for the genetic attributes that create a 20 ft roller.
If either or both of the parents is a 20 ft. roller because of
the chance alignment of a relative few "20 ft genes" from a
diverse background (a wide gene pool) then the percentages of 20
footers in the offspring will be lower. If the parents are from
a highly linebred line of 20+ footers from the same family, then
I can count on a high percentage of offspring being 20 footers.
Same goes with any other attribute, either positive or negative.
If it is present in the parent birds because of a chance
alignment from a broad gene pool, then the chance of throwing it
in the progeny is lower. If it is present in the line of
succession in the ancestry, then it will be inherited in higher
percentages. The problem that I see is that so many families of
rollers have been crossed with so many other families that the
gene pools are wide open in these families so the results are
tremendously variable. Those families that have been bred
tighter tend to have higher percentages of the certain
performance traits that are common to that line...again, be they
positive or negative. From veteran breeders and competitiors
that have been breeding for 30 years or more, if they have a
family where they have crossed many families to create their
own, I tend to hear them complaining that their good birds do
not produce high percentages for them. They are now recommending
that we keep a line of the family straight and pure without
family outcrosses....play with that on the side as a "project".
Cliff
[/quote]
#Post#: 5923--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who to breed? How to get what you want
By: joeb Date: April 4, 2011, 7:39 pm
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The hardest part of linebreeding is resisting the urge to bring
in an outcross. Get the family where you want it and then
introduce some new trait if you feel the urge to do so. After
close line breeding my family, I introduced the color modifier
indigo with very good results. You have to be willing to cull
hard if you are going to use close line breeding. I can't
emphasize this enough.
Keep em spinning
Joe
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