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#Post#: 5850--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: 2y4life Date: April 1, 2011, 9:39 am
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I can see where Tony is coming from but again, I completely
agree with Scott. No matter how the bird looks on the perch, one
can very very rarely determine if the bird is good in the air or
not.
I think everyone agrees that there is something to be said about
a birds expressions but the expressions, as Scott said, doesn't
tell you about the bird's inherit ability to roll. Roller
pigeons have been around for just over a decade since the last
1800s. We don't know nearly as much as we think to be able to
accurately gauge a bird based on what it looks like.
I also agree with Scott about how if he showed us two kits of
great birds and subpar birds, we wouldn't know the difference
but we'd think we know and we'd have a 50/50 chance in guessing
correctly. Of course when we guess correctly, we stroke our own
ego.
I'll give an example using horses as Tony stated, there's too
many variables with humans especially since racing horses has
been around much longer than roller pigeons and horse breeders
look as close and as hard, if not harder, than rollermen simply
because the racing breed has been around longer. This example is
from another forum by a well-educated and well-known racing
fancier.
In 1960, a small horse was born in Oshawa, Ontario. As a
yearling, he was offered for sale for $25,000 (Canadian) and
there were no takers. His owner retained him, trained, and raced
him. In 1963, Northern Dancer won the Kentucky Derby and
Preakness went on to become the most potent sire in all history.
I watched at a yearling sale as his sons and daughters sold for
between $1.5 and $3 million (U.S.) each. E.P. Taylor would
eventually refuse $40 million (U.S.) for the Dancer. He founded
a dynasty worldwide and single-handedly created a horse
My point is that all of the experts and fender fixers evaluated
the horse that they saw, and not the one that they couldn’t, and
they were all wrong: Most pigeon enthusiasts are all wrong
especially when it comes to evaluating pigeons!
#Post#: 5851--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 1, 2011, 9:40 am
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Tony I don't have the time or the energy except to aim at the
mark , although I have been there, way too many culls are bred ,
how many do you cull a rear ? just curious
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5848#msg5848
date=1301668487]
"Tony , I think of these types of threads everytime I'm ringing
the neck of one that I was almost tempted to breed off of the
perch.. or at least used to, I no longer get that temptaition ,
I've gotten a little smarter."
All I can say Scott is that breeding this way is not for the
faint of heart. If you are limited in the number of birds you
can or choose to keep, selecting the wrong bird while getting
rid of other good ones can most assuredly cause problems. Then I
would agree 100%.
But that is not the case with me, I have lots of room and lots
of time to do what I do. I run multiple branches of my birds
simply by the nature of the quantity that I keep after having
been working with 1 group of birds since 1993.
[/quote]
#Post#: 5852--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: April 1, 2011, 9:44 am
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Scott, again, I am not using shortcuts, I am taking advantage of
the equity buildup in knowledge of my birds. I think probably
about 10 years into this strain I started to get a feel for
these birds, it took probably another couple before I gained the
understanding of what I actually have in my strain. When I pick
a bird off the perch, I am thinking of the bloodline it is
passing on in an overall sense. I don't say "gee, this one is
off ole yeller, I gotta keep it". ;)
#Post#: 5853--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: April 1, 2011, 9:49 am
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[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5851#msg5851
date=1301668824]
Tony I don't have the time or the energy except to aim at the
mark , although I have been there, way too many culls are bred ,
how many do you cull a rear ? just curious
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5848#msg5848
date=1301668487]
"Tony , I think of these types of threads everytime I'm ringing
the neck of one that I was almost tempted to breed off of the
perch.. or at least used to, I no longer get that temptaition ,
I've gotten a little smarter."
All I can say Scott is that breeding this way is not for the
faint of heart. If you are limited in the number of birds you
can or choose to keep, selecting the wrong bird while getting
rid of other good ones can most assuredly cause problems. Then I
would agree 100%.
But that is not the case with me, I have lots of room and lots
of time to do what I do. I run multiple branches of my birds
simply by the nature of the quantity that I keep after having
been working with 1 group of birds since 1993.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Proprietary secret. I think the better question is to ask guys
who have my birds what they think of them and how they perform
for them. I can say this, last time I ran the numbers, I found
that 63% of my customers come back for more birds. That is a
winning percentage by any measure.
#Post#: 5854--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 1, 2011, 9:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
How many do you cull a year ?
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5852#msg5852
date=1301669088]
Scott, again, I am not using shortcuts, I am taking advantage of
the equity buildup in knowledge of my birds. I think probably
about 10 years into this strain I started to get a feel for
these birds, it took probably another couple before I gained the
understanding of what I actually have in my strain. When I pick
a bird off the perch, I am thinking of the bloodline it is
passing on in an overall sense. I don't say "gee, this one is
off ole yeller, I gotta keep it". ;)
[/quote]
#Post#: 5855--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 1, 2011, 9:57 am
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Well there we go, we are on different pages , I simply breed to
fly and to get the highest percentage of good pigeons in the
kitbox that I can , my focus has become very narrow
"Proprietary secret. I think the better question is to ask guys
who have my birds what they think of them and how they perform
for them. I can say this, last time I ran the numbers, I found
that 63% of my customers come back for more birds. That is a
winning percentage by any measure."
#Post#: 5856--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: April 1, 2011, 10:49 am
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Scott, best of luck in all your flying endeavors!
#Post#: 5857--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: raul carreiro Date: April 1, 2011, 10:51 am
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Scott, what percentage do you consider an avarage cull rate?
The reason I ask is what is a cull to some, others may not
consider a cull. I am working with 2 strains at the moment, Bob
Brown based birds and Rubys. With the Bob Brown Based birds my
cull rate is about 20-30%. I have only started breeding the Ruby
line and have just started to fly the young, so I am not able to
give a cull rate at this time until I have tested them in the
air! But I am sure there will be culls in the Ruby line as well.
But again not everyone has the same thought in what is
considererd a cull. My idea of a culls and not neccesarily in
this order are non kitting birds, Late roll development (12
months or more) straight flyers,infreqent roll (less than once
per min) early landers, etc. I dont cull rolldowns they cull
thems selfs lol! I do understand that each family of birds have
differences and only with enough time flying these families can
one evaluate the birds.
What do you look for when deciding what is to be culled?
Raul.
#Post#: 5858--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 1, 2011, 1:24 pm
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Raul , I don't get any where near 70 - 80 0/0 good one's , wish
I did , I would be on top of the mountain.
[quote author=raul carreiro link=topic=464.msg5857#msg5857
date=1301673061]
Scott, what percentage do you consider an avarage cull rate?
The reason I ask is what is a cull to some, others may not
consider a cull. I am working with 2 strains at the moment, Bob
Brown based birds and Rubys. With the Bob Brown Based birds my
cull rate is about 20-30%. I have only started breeding the Ruby
line and have just started to fly the young, so I am not able to
give a cull rate at this time until I have tested them in the
air! But I am sure there will be culls in the Ruby line as well.
But again not everyone has the same thought in what is
considererd a cull. My idea of a culls and not neccesarily in
this order are non kitting birds, Late roll development (12
months or more) straight flyers,infreqent roll (less than once
per min) early landers, etc. I dont cull rolldowns they cull
thems selfs lol! I do understand that each family of birds have
differences and only with enough time flying these families can
one evaluate the birds.
What do you look for when deciding what is to be culled?
Raul.
[/quote]
#Post#: 5859--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: 2y4life Date: April 1, 2011, 2:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5858#msg5858
date=1301682264]
Raul , I don't get any where near 70 - 80 0/0 good one's , wish
I did , I would be on top of the mountain.
[/quote]
Most guys I've talked to are more like Scott when it comes to
culling. In my discussions with many of the top flyers from the
West Coast to the East Coast, I don't think I talked to a single
competitor who kept anywhere close to 70-80% of the ybs bred any
given year.
Again, I think it comes down to what you want to do with your
birds. On average, a competitive flyer will cull more and cull
harder than non-competitors. Simply put, there isn't enough room
to keep 70-80% of the young birds bred every year.
Let's say that I bred 100 ybs last year (most competitive flyers
breed around 100 or more ybs per year) and if I really thought
70-80% of my ybs were really good, that means either I expand my
loft or cull harder. No way a flyer can continually add 50+
(would be 70-80 birds but losses to hawks, weather etc taken
into account) birds every year to their loft.
With every bird that you keep, that means that it is either
replacing a bird or you are expanding your program/loft. But as
one wise man once told me "If you keep expanding the numbers of
birds and breeders you keep, you are also diluting the quality
of your birds".
He also said "The worst kit bird you have should be your
standard. If a bird, no matter how it looks, if it does not
perform as good as your worst bird, it's not worth keeping."
Again, everyone has different standards depending who we are. I
know, for a fact, that my standard is nowhere near that of any
of the competitors like Scott or Cliff or any of the other
active competitors who post here. A cull for them would probably
be a decent/good roller to me :)
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