DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Roller Pigeons
HTML https://rollerpigeon.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Selection From The Air and Perch
*****************************************************
#Post#: 5839--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: WhiteWing Date: April 1, 2011, 8:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5833#msg5833
date=1301639836]
I could show you two kitboxes , one loaded with as good as they
come and the other all culls , few could pick which is which...
just a something to chew on
[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=464.msg5816#msg5816
date=1301590416]
Hello Tony, and thanks for the welcome. I totally agree with
you there, IF a breeder selects for certain traits in his birds,
along with the rolling ability of course, they can be bred to
resemble a certain desired look or structural appearance
accompanying the traits of a good roller. I'll be the first to
admit, I haven't gotten to that height of standard yet with my
family, but I know it can be achieved.
I'm a young gun to the roller world, so any input is welcomed
:D
[/quote]
[/quote]
True. . . but just as any species can be bred to have a certain
physical appearance linked with a trait of performance, why
couldn't a pigeon?
#Post#: 5840--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: April 1, 2011, 8:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yeah WhiteWing, seems like the goalposts have been moved. Now we
must know HOW a bird develops to be considered worthy? Look, a
bird picked from the perch is simply proven by breeding it and
flying its offspring. Simple process.
Maybe this is too complicated for some, but no one is saying
pick all your birds in this manner, also, this technique is best
done when a high level of homozygosity (spelling) has been
attained in your strain. It is at this point that through my
experience, I have found the best results when picking a bird
from the perch.
You don't build a strain this way (picking birds off the perch),
my view is after you have established traits and such in your
colony over period of years, a keen observer has an advantage
and insight that he would not have had when he started out with
them. The subtle cues and signs of a good pigeon can be
ascertained by the trained and accomplished eye within his own
strain. At worst it is a 50/50 proposition for a particular
perched picked bird.
#Post#: 5842--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 1, 2011, 9:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It is too complicated of a breed , we are breeding towards a
fault which is the roll impulse which there are varying degrees
of , of which is regulated by mental and physical weakneses and
strengths.
You can learn to get a decent read on a birds strengths or
weakness (expression) but like I said earlier the wild card is
the roll impulse , there just simply are no shortcuts on
building a stud , and the easiest way to make a wrong turn is by
breeding off of the perch.
[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=464.msg5839#msg5839
date=1301663613]
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5833#msg5833
date=1301639836]
I could show you two kitboxes , one loaded with as good as they
come and the other all culls , few could pick which is which...
just a something to chew on
[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=464.msg5816#msg5816
date=1301590416]
Hello Tony, and thanks for the welcome. I totally agree with
you there, IF a breeder selects for certain traits in his birds,
along with the rolling ability of course, they can be bred to
resemble a certain desired look or structural appearance
accompanying the traits of a good roller. I'll be the first to
admit, I haven't gotten to that height of standard yet with my
family, but I know it can be achieved.
I'm a young gun to the roller world, so any input is welcomed
:D
[/quote]
[/quote]
True. . . but just as any species can be bred to have a certain
physical appearance linked with a trait of performance, why
couldn't a pigeon?
[/quote]
#Post#: 5843--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 1, 2011, 9:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes Tony you MUST know how they develope
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5840#msg5840
date=1301665473]
Yeah WhiteWing, seems like the goalposts have been moved. Now we
must know HOW a bird develops to be considered worthy? Look, a
bird picked from the perch is simply proven by breeding it and
flying its offspring. Simple process.
Maybe this is too complicated for some, but no one is saying
pick all your birds in this manner, also, this technique is best
done when a high level of homozygosity (spelling) has been
attained in your strain. It is at this point that through my
experience, I have found the best results when picking a bird
from the perch.
You don't build a strain this way (picking birds off the perch),
my view is after you have established traits and such in your
colony over period of years, a keen observer has an advantage
and insight that he would not have had when he started out with
them. The subtle cues and signs of a good pigeon can be
ascertained by the trained and accomplished eye within his own
strain. At worst it is a 50/50 proposition for a particular
perched picked bird.
[/quote]
#Post#: 5844--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: April 1, 2011, 9:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5842#msg5842
date=1301667364]
It is too complicated of a breed , we are breeding towards a
fault which is the roll impulse which there are varying degrees
of , of which is regulated by mental and physical weakneses and
strengths.
You can learn to get a decent read on a birds strengths or
weakness (expression) but like I said earlier the wild card is
the roll impulse , there just simply are no shortcuts on
building a stud , and the easiest way to make a wrong turn is by
breeding off of the perch.
[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=464.msg5839#msg5839
date=1301663613]
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5833#msg5833
date=1301639836]
I could show you two kitboxes , one loaded with as good as they
come and the other all culls , few could pick which is which...
just a something to chew on
[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=464.msg5816#msg5816
date=1301590416]
Hello Tony, and thanks for the welcome. I totally agree with
you there, IF a breeder selects for certain traits in his birds,
along with the rolling ability of course, they can be bred to
resemble a certain desired look or structural appearance
accompanying the traits of a good roller. I'll be the first to
admit, I haven't gotten to that height of standard yet with my
family, but I know it can be achieved.
I'm a young gun to the roller world, so any input is welcomed
:D
[/quote]
[/quote]
True. . . but just as any species can be bred to have a certain
physical appearance linked with a trait of performance, why
couldn't a pigeon?
[/quote]
[/quote]
Scott, you are right, it is a complicated breed, most of what
you said I would not disagree with. Reaching a point in a
breeding program where one could conceivably entertain the
thought of rationally selecting off the perch is NOT a short
cut, it is a result of the equity built up over time (a long
time or through intense experience).
#Post#: 5845--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: April 1, 2011, 9:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5843#msg5843
date=1301667583]
Again no , this is the problem with these internet site's bad
advice abounds setting people off on the wrong track.
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5840#msg5840
date=1301665473]
Yeah WhiteWing, seems like the goalposts have been moved. Now we
must know HOW a bird develops to be considered worthy? Look, a
bird picked from the perch is simply proven by breeding it and
flying its offspring. Simple process.
Maybe this is too complicated for some, but no one is saying
pick all your birds in this manner, also, this technique is best
done when a high level of homozygosity (spelling) has been
attained in your strain. It is at this point that through my
experience, I have found the best results when picking a bird
from the perch.
You don't build a strain this way (picking birds off the perch),
my view is after you have established traits and such in your
colony over period of years, a keen observer has an advantage
and insight that he would not have had when he started out with
them. The subtle cues and signs of a good pigeon can be
ascertained by the trained and accomplished eye within his own
strain. At worst it is a 50/50 proposition for a particular
perched picked bird.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Yeah, and you know all the answers and are gonna set everything
right. Well, I claim the same righteous position of correctness
that you do. I only speak up for my position on this matter, not
the other comments.
#Post#: 5846--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 1, 2011, 9:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Tony , I think of these types of threads everytime I'm ringing
the neck of one that I was almost tempted to breed off of the
perch.. or at least used to, I no longer get that temptaition ,
I've gotten a little smarter.
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5844#msg5844
date=1301667712]
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5842#msg5842
date=1301667364]
It is too complicated of a breed , we are breeding towards a
fault which is the roll impulse which there are varying degrees
of , of which is regulated by mental and physical weakneses and
strengths.
You can learn to get a decent read on a birds strengths or
weakness (expression) but like I said earlier the wild card is
the roll impulse , there just simply are no shortcuts on
building a stud , and the easiest way to make a wrong turn is by
breeding off of the perch.
[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=464.msg5839#msg5839
date=1301663613]
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5833#msg5833
date=1301639836]
I could show you two kitboxes , one loaded with as good as they
come and the other all culls , few could pick which is which...
just a something to chew on
[quote author=WhiteWing link=topic=464.msg5816#msg5816
date=1301590416]
Hello Tony, and thanks for the welcome. I totally agree with
you there, IF a breeder selects for certain traits in his birds,
along with the rolling ability of course, they can be bred to
resemble a certain desired look or structural appearance
accompanying the traits of a good roller. I'll be the first to
admit, I haven't gotten to that height of standard yet with my
family, but I know it can be achieved.
I'm a young gun to the roller world, so any input is welcomed
:D
[/quote]
[/quote]
True. . . but just as any species can be bred to have a certain
physical appearance linked with a trait of performance, why
couldn't a pigeon?
[/quote]
[/quote]
Scott, you are right, it is a complicated breed, most of what
you said I would not disagree with. Reaching a point in a
breeding program where one could conceivably entertain the
thought of rationally selecting off the perch is NOT a short
cut, it is a result of the equity built up over time (a long
time or through intense experience).
[/quote]
#Post#: 5847--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: April 1, 2011, 9:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5843#msg5843
date=1301667583]
Yes Tony you MUST know how they develope
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5840#msg5840
date=1301665473]
Yeah WhiteWing, seems like the goalposts have been moved. Now we
must know HOW a bird develops to be considered worthy? Look, a
bird picked from the perch is simply proven by breeding it and
flying its offspring. Simple process.
Maybe this is too complicated for some, but no one is saying
pick all your birds in this manner, also, this technique is best
done when a high level of homozygosity (spelling) has been
attained in your strain. It is at this point that through my
experience, I have found the best results when picking a bird
from the perch.
You don't build a strain this way (picking birds off the perch),
my view is after you have established traits and such in your
colony over period of years, a keen observer has an advantage
and insight that he would not have had when he started out with
them. The subtle cues and signs of a good pigeon can be
ascertained by the trained and accomplished eye within his own
strain. At worst it is a 50/50 proposition for a particular
perched picked bird.
[/quote]
[/quote]
If I fly the offspring out and discover how THEY develop, then
why is it important that the development of the bird picked off
the perch be known, especially because we both know a bird that
was flown out and developed "properly" will not produce 100% in
kind?
#Post#: 5848--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: April 1, 2011, 9:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Tony , I think of these types of threads everytime I'm ringing
the neck of one that I was almost tempted to breed off of the
perch.. or at least used to, I no longer get that temptaition ,
I've gotten a little smarter."
All I can say Scott is that breeding this way is not for the
faint of heart. If you are limited in the number of birds you
can or choose to keep, selecting the wrong bird while getting
rid of other good ones can most assuredly cause problems. Then I
would agree 100%.
But that is not the case with me, I have lots of room and lots
of time to do what I do. I run multiple branches of my birds
simply by the nature of the quantity that I keep after having
been working with 1 group of birds since 1993.
#Post#: 5849--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: April 1, 2011, 9:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm just a simple flyer with no motives to dictate anything
except the truth , I have seen the result of pulling off of the
perch and pedigree breeding in too many other flyers lofts
including my own .. I wish I could say there are shortcuts but
there simply isn't.
PS I edited that post, but you caught it prior to the edit.
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5845#msg5845
date=1301667837]
[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=464.msg5843#msg5843
date=1301667583]
Again no , this is the problem with these internet site's bad
advice abounds setting people off on the wrong track.
[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5840#msg5840
date=1301665473]
Yeah WhiteWing, seems like the goalposts have been moved. Now we
must know HOW a bird develops to be considered worthy? Look, a
bird picked from the perch is simply proven by breeding it and
flying its offspring. Simple process.
Maybe this is too complicated for some, but no one is saying
pick all your birds in this manner, also, this technique is best
done when a high level of homozygosity (spelling) has been
attained in your strain. It is at this point that through my
experience, I have found the best results when picking a bird
from the perch.
You don't build a strain this way (picking birds off the perch),
my view is after you have established traits and such in your
colony over period of years, a keen observer has an advantage
and insight that he would not have had when he started out with
them. The subtle cues and signs of a good pigeon can be
ascertained by the trained and accomplished eye within his own
strain. At worst it is a 50/50 proposition for a particular
perched picked bird.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Yeah, and you know all the answers and are gonna set everything
right. Well, I claim the same righteous position of correctness
that you do. I only speak up for my position on this matter, not
the other comments.
[/quote]
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page