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#Post#: 5788--------------------------------------------------
The "One"
By: n00bR0113rs Date: March 30, 2011, 8:36 am
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Was there ever a case where picking from the perch you just knew
that, that bird was going to be good in the air?
What was his or her characteristic traits?
Maybe personality/ attitude?
Did his or her body structure look very appealing?
How does this one bird interact with other birds?
Maybe i'm thinking too much but i like observing my
birds.(sometime has to much time on lol..)
Pigeon people are the best.
Xee
#Post#: 5789--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Joe Asaro Date: March 30, 2011, 10:14 am
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Not at all Pensom was a master of such observation.You see the
good and the bad in temperament of each of your breeders and the
balance that shows up. Watch and learn. ;D Joe
#Post#: 5792--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: wishiwon2 Date: March 30, 2011, 1:33 pm
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Nothing wrong with watching and learning. I spend too much time
watching my birds too.
However, there is no substitute for being air proven. It is a
rare gift or ability to be able to consistently identify top
performers or producers off the perch. Experience will give you
the chance to make an educated guess. It has become the achilles
heel of lots of rollermen and bloodlines. Thinking they know
what to look for, they make wrong choice after wrong choice and
end up will substandard performers over the long term.
This breed is all about what it can do, not how it looks or
acts. There are correlations between them, but they are not
absolute.
#Post#: 5795--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Steve49 Date: March 30, 2011, 3:04 pm
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[quote author=wishiwon2 link=topic=464.msg5792#msg5792
date=1301509995]
Nothing wrong with watching and learning. I spend too much time
watching my birds too.
However, there is no substitute for being air proven. It is a
rare gift or ability to be able to consistently identify top
performers or producers off the perch. Experience will give you
the chance to make an educated guess. It has become the achilles
heel of lots of rollermen and bloodlines. Thinking they know
what to look for, they make wrong choice after wrong choice and
end up will substandard performers over the long term.
This breed is all about what it can do, not how it looks or
acts. There are correlations between them, but they are not
absolute.
[/quote]
wishiwon said it perfectly, you should not place too much
importance on looks, as we've all seen beautiful looking birds
that did squat or little in the air. besides, not all great
performers have the same body type anyways.
#Post#: 5797--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: March 30, 2011, 5:28 pm
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[quote author=wishiwon2 link=topic=464.msg5792#msg5792
date=1301509995]
"...Experience will give you the chance to make an educated
guess. It has become the achilles heel of lots of rollermen and
bloodlines. Thinking they know what to look for, they make wrong
choice after wrong choice and end up will substandard performers
over the long term..."
This breed is all about what it can do, not how it looks or
acts. There are correlations between them, but they are not
absolute.
[/quote]
Provide evidence please.
#Post#: 5798--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: 2y4life Date: March 30, 2011, 6:51 pm
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There are some things that I think most roller look for be it
stance, temperament, tail/wing position and so forth and while
that is important, the air will always be the only true
indicator of a great bird.
I've also done this before on a different site once. There were
20+ regular members on the site with all but two members stating
they could tell a good roller from a bad roller based on how it
looks from a photo alone. I listed 10 rollers with 9 of your run
of the mill rollers that have never accomplished anything and
then one outstanding roller. None of the guys were able to pick
the best roller...no one.
Again, you can talk to any basketball historian, you can't tell
who is and isn't a great basketball player based on how they
look physically. You can't tell who is a great football player
based on looks and you can't tell who is a great baseball player
based on looks. While there are somethings that are given for
most athletes (good posture, physically fit looking etc), you
can't base everything on looks. Perfect example for each sport
is a guy like Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, and Babe Ruth.
In the end, I do believe in the same thing wishiwon stated.
#Post#: 5800--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: raul carreiro Date: March 30, 2011, 8:26 pm
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I find it very difficult to beleive that anyone can pick a good
performing bird from a perch! Rollers have too many variables
for this to be so , there is no standard to tell you what a good
performing bird looks or should look like. Performance in the
air is the most excepted and proven method in my opinion. Of
all the books I have read only Pensom, his "disiples and the
keepers of the "Holy Grail"claim to be able to pick someone
elses best performing birds from the perch! Pensom died a
pennyless man, so much for his ability to foresee an action
before it happens!! There are also those particularly in the
Racing Homer world who claim to tell which birds are the best
from eye signs. This therory is also what it is ,a therory and
has never been proven to work!! The only thing looking in the
eyes of a bird does is confirms to the fancier that the bird has
2 eyes as it should LOL!
Raul.
#Post#: 5801--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: wishiwon2 Date: March 30, 2011, 11:55 pm
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[quote author=Tony Chavarria link=topic=464.msg5797#msg5797
date=1301524122]
[quote author=wishiwon2 link=topic=464.msg5792#msg5792
date=1301509995]
"...Experience will give you the chance to make an educated
guess. It has become the achilles heel of lots of rollermen and
bloodlines. Thinking they know what to look for, they make wrong
choice after wrong choice and end up will substandard performers
over the long term..."
This breed is all about what it can do, not how it looks or
acts. There are correlations between them, but they are not
absolute.
[/quote]
Provide evidence please.
[/quote]
What kind of evidences Tony? About those who have dead ended by
choosing from the perch? or correlations between
conformation/temperment/expression/etc and performance? In
re-reading my original post, I claimed picking birds strictly
from the perch has ruined lots of bloodlines and rollermen. That
isnt true. It has ruined some ... I know of none firsthand who
have been successful doing it that way.
I will not identify individuals that have spoiled good rollers
or bloodlines that have been diminished, by picking birds based
primarily on physical attributes on a public forum. That would
be too personal and only stir up bad feelings. I have seen it
happen, first hand, twice. I have heard from those who I trust,
of it happening other times and places. Men that began with good
rollers but generations later had mediocre birds in the air. Men
who chose birds based on what they had read about Pensom doing.
They did have some ability to choose birds that were performing
vs those doing nothing, but were not consistent about picking
top quality performers vs average or less. They are men who most
would not recognize their names, because they were not
successful, but there are others of some distinction.
If you are looking for evidences about correlations between
physical attributes and good performing, I can share a few, not
many, because it is not something I focus on and seldom even
note, with the exception of traits that I find correlate with
poor performance. It is not that the trait makes a bird a top
performer, but top performers have some traits in common,
generally.
#Post#: 5802--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: March 31, 2011, 12:07 am
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Being asked to select the "best" pigeon from a picture line up
is stupid. I take allot of pictures of birds and it is amazing
how something about the bird is lost when I look at photos of
birds compared to what I see in them when I handle them and
examine them in a show pen.
When guys show pictures of birds and ask others to find the best
one, I have never participated because it is a guess at best.
The bird loses something that is only seen when looking at the
pigeon in real time. I think there are several factors to
consider why a guy seems to lose his touch, mostly I think
because he keeps too few birds to work with and breeds himself
into a corner and runs out of options.
#Post#: 5803--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "One"
By: Tony Chavarria Date: March 31, 2011, 12:26 am
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[quote author=2y4life link=topic=464.msg5798#msg5798
date=1301529075]
There are some things that I think most roller look for be it
stance, temperament, tail/wing position and so forth and while
that is important, the air will always be the only true
indicator of a great bird.
I've also done this before on a different site once. There were
20+ regular members on the site with all but two members stating
they could tell a good roller from a bad roller based on how it
looks from a photo alone. I listed 10 rollers with 9 of your run
of the mill rollers that have never accomplished anything and
then one outstanding roller. None of the guys were able to pick
the best roller...no one.
Again, you can talk to any basketball historian, you can't tell
who is and isn't a great basketball player based on how they
look physically. You can't tell who is a great football player
based on looks and you can't tell who is a great baseball player
based on looks. While there are somethings that are given for
most athletes (good posture, physically fit looking etc), you
can't base everything on looks. Perfect example for each sport
is a guy like Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, and Babe Ruth. In the
end, I do believe in the same thing wishiwon stated.
[/quote]
A couple things when comparing animals to humans. Humans can
think and reason, they are self-aware, a lesser player can
through incentive and motivation play beyond pain, certain
inabilities and excel. An athlete may not be the fastest down
court, but once he gets there, he can shoot 3 pointers like
nobodies business, but maybe cannot take it to the hole to save
his life, yet could be a successful NBA player.
An animal cannot reason (pigeons) and will for the most part
follow internal (genetic) programming and management practice
(habit building). Beyond that, a pigeon or group of pigeons are
not going to be flying the WC Fly and decide that after a pep
talk by the kit leader that they will go balls out and win this
one for the"Gipper". From the perch, I know what I don't like in
my birds and I know what I do like. Does this guarantee
anything, of course not, but I have been right so many times
that I trust my own judgment. Course, I been working with my
family for going on 20 years.
I am not suggesting that a person should only pick birds from
the perch, but my goodness, I have done it enough with good
results (knowing the family, the lineage of given birds, small
subtle indicators, etc). I have been at this going on 20 years,
when will I see the wall?
Caveat, could I do it with your birds? No way, wouldn't even
try.
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