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#Post#: 5305--------------------------------------------------
kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: wishiwon2
Date: February 22, 2011, 6:37 pm
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List
Asking your opinion; Is it better when assembling a competition
kit, to use birds that are similar in depth or some short,
medium and deep ones together?
One of the arguements Ive heard for making a kit with same depth
birds is that some of the shorter depth birds, although rolling
deep enough to score, may not get counted if there are some very
deep birds going too. The eye tends to follow the last roll,
some of the short workers may not get counted because they have
stopped and are nearly rejoined with the kit when the deeper
birds finish rolling. AND/OR they arent credited with sufficient
depth because of what they are being compared with.
On the flip side a kit showcasing variable depths may make a
greater impression with a judge especially if the deep ones are
also top quality. Like a roller mural painted in the sky, they
show everything at once.
What do you all prefer, and why?
#Post#: 5312--------------------------------------------------
Re: kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: Jay Knepp
Date: February 23, 2011, 6:51 am
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In my few years of flying competition I have found that it
seems my kits get a better depth multiplier when the birds are
simular in depth versus having a few deep birds in the kit and
also it seems they work better as a team when they are all
comparable in depth. This is just my thoughts on a subject that
many guys have much more experience at than me ...........Jay
#Post#: 5317--------------------------------------------------
Re: kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: 2y4life
Date: February 23, 2011, 9:37 am
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Jay, that makes sense to me. You're being judged as a whole and
you want the entire kit to break as a whole (or as many as
possibly) so you want them to be in synch as much as possible.
Having birds rolling at the same depth will give you the best
chance of having them roll at the same time and going back into
the group at the same time. If you have 10 birds rolling the
same depth and 8 birds rolling very deep, those 10 birds will
finish first and will be back as a group while the other 8 are
still finishing the roll. It means those 8 birds will still have
to catch up the to other 10 birds as they are already getting
ready for the next break.
Again, as Jay said, I'd like to hear from more experienced guys
on this subject.
#Post#: 8689--------------------------------------------------
Re: kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: bman
Date: August 21, 2011, 8:22 am
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I find this very interesting. I have struggled with this
question. I have found with my birds
if the birds are deeper on average say 20ft plus on the big
breaks they take much longer to re-kit than if I have a mixture
of depths. Seem the shorter birds re-kit quicker giving the
deeper birds a point of reference if that makes sense. That
being said I find very difficult to find twenty birds all the
same depth. I shoot for 15ft being the minimum
and as deep as they can go and still get back in the kit in a
reasonable time.
The problem I have with really deep birds, say 40ft plus, is if
the break is small or a only a couple of deep birds roll while
the rest of the does not it is easy for them to lose the kit
for awhile. All comments welcome.
Ron
#Post#: 8690--------------------------------------------------
Re: kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: August 21, 2011, 12:46 pm
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Jon.. When I'm judging I don't let my eyes focus go to
individules .. it is on the mass . When ever the fucus is on
individules I absolutly cannot gauge the quality or lack of of
others.
Judging the 11 bird fly in the finals got very difficult due to
many had only 1-3 birds that really had the goods and many went
individualy where it was dufficult not to lock in on an ind.
.Then another may or may not go and it was easy to miss as the
focus was on another. Sure you know another bird went but had no
idea of the quality. It was a struggle and I had to force myself
not to let myself lock my focus in on anything but the mass even
if only one bird went.
The ultimate in the 11 bird fly is a solid team hammering as a
team . It is much easier to gauge the quality of all and score
by such but then gets really dicy awarding the bonuses to the
ind. The 11 bird fly is not a easy fly to judge unless there is
only a couple popping here and there.
As for the depth .. when I have a good mature team they tend to
mimick each others depth . The deeper ones will tend to shorten
up also if the team is on point. But here and there will rip
their depth, but if they are good birds they don't hurt the team
by doing so. When flying youngbirds everything tends to be much
more all over the board which creates problems.
#Post#: 8691--------------------------------------------------
Re: kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: donnie james
Date: August 21, 2011, 6:06 pm
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hay wishbone,
i like a miti dept kit i believe you score more points that and
i like the inidividule scoring i think you can get more points
that then 5 or more brakes i could be wrong on my thinking
donnie james
#Post#: 8693--------------------------------------------------
Re: kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: wishiwon2
Date: August 22, 2011, 1:17 am
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Scott
I agree, 11 bird kits can be tough to score, especially real
active ones that break in 2's and 3's in waterfall fashion.
One thing I tend to get in my mature birds goes along with what
you mentioned about mimicking one another. I'll end up with a
few fakers in some of the breaks. They arent quite ready to trip
it yet but a good portion of the kit goes and they go along, but
not really hitting it. I call it 'faking' becasue they drop
approximately the same depth as the birds in the break and sorta
roll but sortanot, they dont turn over like a normal good
quality roll. Its different birds at different times. If I can
identify a bird that is faking too much I pull it out the team.
Somehow its not on the same page as the rest. I also believe it
is some of the price of selcting for kit sensitivity. They want
to be together, doing what the rest of the team is doing, but
havent let the impulse build enough to be ready to dump a solid
roll.
To the original topic; I prefer a range of depth. I think it is
a more impressive view to have birds going to multiple levels. I
also think it helps on the re-group. They have to look for one
another and chart a course to get back together. When I have a
kit of equal depth birds, they sometimes get comfortable as a
group after a break and the 2 groups, (those who rolled and
those that didnt) dont get back together promptly.
While it may be that some of those rolling near 10 ft may not
get scored, it gives a reference for those what are pulling good
depth. I dont like a really wide range of short to deep
together, though. A few 15-20, a few 25-30 and a couple around
40 makes a good panorama of spinning and gives good opportunity
to evaluate quality across the break. It also makes it easier to
judge how many vs a mass of birds all ending at the same point.
all this said ... this fall I'll just be glad to have a kit that
rolls ...
Jon
#Post#: 8694--------------------------------------------------
Re: kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: August 22, 2011, 9:20 am
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Jon .. it seems that the faking happens alot when there is wind
or stiff breeze . couple that whith them getting pushed off a
tad and you really have to be on your toes if you are judging.
As for comment " a kit that rolls " LOL. Something about this
time of year . Body moult along with warm temps just shuts the
roll down for me until Oct. , it is the same every year and has
me questioning my breeding season and there is very very little
roll even out of my best , it's like I forget this every year
LOL.
#Post#: 10038--------------------------------------------------
Re: kit depth; all the same or variable?
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: November 28, 2011, 3:11 pm
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Ideally, I'd like to see a kit of all 30-35 footers with good
quality and superior speed. Clay Hoyle's championship 20-bird
team....the best kit I have ever seen in the air....was composed
of such a team of birds. The entire kit would drop 30-35 feet,
rotate 45 degrees in their direction of flight, and break again.
It was beautiful.
Cliff
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