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#Post#: 1716--------------------------------------------------
Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: bill@gude.com Date: October 26, 2010, 9:42 pm
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[font=calibri] Will The True
Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?[/font]
[font=calibri] [/font]
[font=calibri]For years I have herd Pensom never had yellows,
Pensom never played with cross breeding, the line is to big,
too small ,flights to wide, hooked secondary’s, wings not
perched on the tail correctly, pearl eyes, orange eyes, bull
eyes, long keel , short keel , and so on, and so forth. [/font]
[font=calibri]Now I been into rollers since 1956 I and even did
the show thing in the early seventy’s until rollers were more
Modena than roller and could hardly fly up to the perch.[/font]
[font=calibri]To look at a show roller today makes sick.[/font]
[font=calibri]Rollers are just that regardless of all the other
features listed above if it rolls with velocity in a tight ball
and at reasonable depth, (Not three foot), and rolls at least
once a minute it’s a roller.[/font]
[font=calibri]With color genes flying all over the place, and
people not basing their bird on pedigrees, at what point do they
become something other than Birmingham rollers? And what is a
pure Birmingham roller can anyone define the heritage I don’t
think so. [/font]
[font=calibri]Would you pull a yellow or any other off color
bird out of your kit it if was a great performer, would you not
stock it if it had all the fly quality’s.[/font]
[font=calibri]The true Birmingham roller is so mixed not even
Pensom dare declare their heritage, but if they performed to the
standard they were a Birmingham roller. [/font]
#Post#: 1717--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: Sound Rollers Date: October 26, 2010, 9:57 pm
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Yeah the way I see it is, Pensom referred to the breed as
Birmingham Rollers, he would loosely call them Tumblers and when
they flew to Black Country Standards they were "True Birmingham
Rollers". It's all in the performance. No I would not cull a
R.V.D. good performer.
r/
#Post#: 1724--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: October 27, 2010, 9:38 am
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That answer is "NO" .. first and foremost they wouldn't be
allowed on the property to begin with..
There is a reason why you only see the odd good one.
(Would you pull a yellow or any other off color bird out of your
kit it if was a great performer, would you not stock it if it
had all the fly quality’s.)
#Post#: 1728--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: Sound Rollers Date: October 27, 2010, 12:27 pm
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I answered that question with the presumption the "yellow or off
color" came from my birds. Would someone please explain what the
issue is with colors, and what colors are targeted as inferior
to the Birmingham Roller Breed.
r/
#Post#: 1729--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: October 27, 2010, 1:40 pm
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John.. the issue is those that polluted the breed with other
breeds for color and factors..that is what ol Bill is refering
to when he says "color genes flying around" it is worth note
that delute (yellow) is within the breed .. although myself I
have yet to witness a truelly good one where quality is
concerned.
As for Pensom and the term "tumbler" Tumber is nothing more than
a derogritory remark for a undesirable Brirmingham Roller ...
find me a single Tumbler breed that can pass for a Birmingham
Roller on the ground ... there are none... that is because they
are seperate breeds and the Birmingham Roller was developed into
it's own distinct breed as were the various Tumbler breeds.
The confusion here comes from those that want it confused in
order to justify those that polluted the breed for color..
nothing more and nothing less.
Within my family if a bird (cull) only tumbles it is due to too
much control of the roll .. and are usually strong cock birds
with a wealth of feather... they are still Birmingham Rollers ..
they are just simply cullsl.
[quote author=John link=topic=170.msg1728#msg1728
date=1288200442]
I answered that question with the presumption the "yellow or off
color" came from my birds. Would someone please explain what the
issue is with colors, and what colors are targeted as inferior
to the Birmingham Roller Breed.
r/
[/quote]
#Post#: 1730--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: Sound Rollers Date: October 27, 2010, 2:06 pm
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Thanks, I understood Pensom was using Tumbler as a derogatory
remark, he clearly does in his book. The color issue has puzzled
me, why would anybody breed anything but BR to BR. Thanks for
the note worthy info. [quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS
link=topic=170.msg1729#msg1729 date=1288204827]
John.. the issue is those that polluted the breed with other
breeds for color and factors..that is what ol Bill is refering
to when he says "color genes flying around" it is worth note
that delute (yellow) is within the breed .. although myself I
have yet to witness a truelly good one where quality is
concerned.
As for Pensom and the term "tumbler" Tumber is nothing more than
a derogritory remark for a undesirable Brirmingham Roller ...
find me a single Tumbler breed that can pass for a Birmingham
Roller on the ground ... there are none... that is because they
are seperate breeds and the Birmingham Roller was developed into
it's own distinct breed as were the various Tumbler breeds.
The confusion here comes from those that want it confused in
order to justify those that polluted the breed for color..
nothing more and nothing less.
Within my family if a bird (cull) only tumbles it is due to too
much control of the roll .. and are usually strong cock birds
with a wealth of feather... they are still Birmingham Rollers ..
they are just simply cullsl.
[quote author=John link=topic=170.msg1728#msg1728
date=1288200442]
I answered that question with the presumption the "yellow or off
color" came from my birds. Would someone please explain what the
issue is with colors, and what colors are targeted as inferior
to the Birmingham Roller Breed.
r/
[/quote]
[/quote]
#Post#: 1732--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: Steve49 Date: October 27, 2010, 3:20 pm
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on a side note to this topic, when did the first tipplers
appear? i sense that the tippler might have been used to develop
the early rollers. the tippler had great flying traits, although
today not many want a really high flying roller. however, its
hard to deny the similarities between the two breeds. tipplers,
afaik are not bred for color either. to me the Birmingham roller
name is really just a reference to the breeds' origins, the
black hills area around Birmingham. i myself care little about
where a roller originates from, but what it does in the air. the
breed has had many fanciers try to improve it every which way
they can think of. Some of these attempts have not been good, as
can be seen by your own eyes. many have been good, and these
birds are highly sought after. Sadly, not all have the skills
or discipline to improve the breed, no matter how they try. the
internet is full of well meaning people who want to offer help
and information for us, but its the ability to master proper
breeding techniques that is so elusive. If only the mediocre
roller would lose itself like the racing homer that can't find
its way home, it would be so much easier. unfortunately, its
ususally a good roller that gets taken by the bop or overfly,
and then we have to make do with less than desirable birds to
breed from. If we all pledged to ourselves the importance of
only using the very best, we might see real progress in
developing the Birmingham roller to what it can be in our lofts.
its chasing that ideal that keeps me going, but it can be tough
and frustrating at times. Good luck in trying to identifying the
tru BR, because that's only the first step.
#Post#: 1736--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: KevinM Date: October 27, 2010, 7:05 pm
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The argument I would make here is that the word roller and
tumbler are words that describe performance. If you took that
"cull" roller from motherlodelofts example and flew it with a
kit of tumblers. Would you be able to tell that a birmingham
roller was flying with them? would you not just say, "What a
nice kit of tumblers," making the assumption that the flying
ability of the kit was just tumblers.
I am flying tumblers right now. They are suppose to be rollers,
but they are not rolling. Yet I still call them Rollers, which
in a few more months I hope they start gaining some depth. Its a
slow progression with what I have so far.
The bird could be pink for all I care. If its rolling then I
have a roller. If it makes more pink birds that roll like its
self, then I have a roller that makes more rollers.
I personally would not take physicality as all of it. The
rolling mutation is so unique and unknown that getting caught up
in color may not be necessary. Unless of course you know by what
means a bird rolls, and know every single way you can impact it
and can reliably predict what will happen. But rolling is a very
diverse action and unpredictable that who is to say the
pigmentation of its feathers has any connection to rolling. At
least in the manner that is it unforgivable or abominable.
But hey, I have plenty of standard color rollers that aint that
great. SO who knows. Well I guess some one must, or there would
be no discussion of it.
#Post#: 1738--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: bill@gude.com Date: October 27, 2010, 10:30 pm
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I prefer the pure Birmingham’s if there is any such thing, We
have an pure Pensom strain off of the514 line but they don’t
come into the roll until around six months, and don’t peak until
2 years.
With the life expectancy of around six months, I just don’t get
much action, however I have a hosposh line of rollers and I do
call them rollers, (Birmingham?) But they are a mix up of a
bunch of lines Leroy smith line of Hector Coya, and a Norm Reed,
an unknown lace, from Coya, old Lemyer stuff, and an un-banded
fly in and a splash of Jerry Higgins they roll fast and some up
to 50 ft. Deep. But the Average around 10 /30 ft. deep and
quite often, they are rolling good at six to eight mounts so I
do get some enjoyment before they are killed or chased off.
They kit well and are fun to watch But we do have a fair amount
of rolldowns each year from this hosposh line about 1 in 20 due
to the short life span I like this line, but in the long haul if
there is one in today’s roller flying the Pensoms do well.
#Post#: 1744--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will The True Birmingham Roller Please Identify Your self?
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 28, 2010, 7:57 am
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Bill,
While I and many other breeders/flyers of TRUE BIRMINGHAM
ROLLERS agree with you, unfortunately, not ALL will agree with
you. Don't be fooled. Since we are talking about Factors that
are easily mis-identified or confused for other more common
factors, there is a very good reason that few can identify a
team made up of, or are bred off of Birmingham Rollers that
carry or show factors not identified in the original imports.
Joe Quinn describes how a cock with one factor for Indigo paired
with an Indigo hen, can produce 25% offspring that are NOT
carrying/showing indigo at all. Since this is true, then the
purists among us have problems since they can't identify these
birds to begin with! I have loads of blue checks and blacks that
come from Indigo and Andalusian parents, and they can spin with
the best of 'em. Lofts all around the ocuntry have bird like
this in them. At the LA NBRC Convention, I saw a hen on a nest
with pink bars and remarked that the flyer was breeding color
birds. "No way!" he said fearing the condemnation of the purists
in his area. "That bird (a reduced hen) is one of the fastest
and deepest birds in my loft." Naturally he was breeding the
hell out of her! He insisted that she was from his pure Pensom
line! There are teams of birds flown every year that are
composed entirely of birds that are carrying or showing factors
that were not identified in the original imports, or bred from
birds that do, but few can identify them. The point is, most
roller flyers fly their best performance team, what ever factors
they show or carry. As I have said before, there is no mention
of any color factors that are not accepted in any national or
international organization or fly competitions. Opinions we
have in abundance, while tolerance for those who feel
differently about this or that, can sometimes be in short
supply. Enjoy your bird's performance whatever color they are.
I have seen roller kits all around the country and I have seen
rollers in EVERY color that can spin as well or better than any
others. We have top flyers, Master Flyers and World Cup winners
on both coasts who have incorporated rollers that carry
Indigo/Andalusians and Reduced factors into their birds because
of their work rate, speed, quality and depth. Color is simply
not the issue as some would have you believe. Don't allow
yourself to be fooled or led astray by the prejudice of one or
two vocal guys. Get around and see the birds for yourself. The
make up your own mind. I had a guy and his wife in my yard last
weekend from Massachusetts, that has been in rollers for 15
years. After he saw a few kits fly, his said, " I have never
seen rollers with this kind of frequency, speed, depth, speed
and quality. Why would anyone want to fly anything else BUT this
family of rollers with color?" Personally, I think that's pretty
cool!
Cliff
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