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#Post#: 1438--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: BigShawn
Date: October 17, 2010, 11:20 am
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[
John, this goes back to the reason I started the thread.We have
a standard, but our standard is to vague. We all can read it and
all of us have a different opinion on what it means. We[the
NBRC] need to adopt a competition standard to judge our birds by
to put the flyers and the judge on the same page.I have read
this topic on alot of list, and forum's and no one is on the
same page, that is a problem for our hobby. Some judges are way
to loose and some are way to tight[ my opinion], they are not
consistant and need to be on the same page.
That would be great to get everyone one the same page for a set
standard. Then there wouldnt be all thin infighting going on as
to how each judge scores a fly. Shawn
#Post#: 1463--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: J_Star
Date: October 18, 2010, 6:58 am
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What this fuss all about? I was gone for the weekend and more
posts about the subject. Before anyone goes in a tangent, please
re-read my post #20 and in particular: “if the birds were flying
up close for a while and you were able to determine the kit
quality and depth, chemistry and work rate, once they fly higher
or away, then you can pretty much assume that the quality and
the depth still the same and you still can score them. That is
if they are with reasonable viewing distance.”
So please don’t put words in my mouth!!
Jay
#Post#: 1465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: michael salus
Date: October 18, 2010, 8:26 am
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Jay, I don't think you should assume ( guess) anything when
judging. .... My birds can look good one break and like junk the
next... all in the same fly..JMHO.. Mike
#Post#: 1467--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 18, 2010, 8:41 am
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John,
I think there are several reasons. Many NBRC Presidents and
officers don't want to make any radical changes for fear of
upsetting the members....in other cases, some flyers see
themselves as the only ones who know what real quality is. They
are afraid that if the NBRC sets a standard that it will rob
them of the power to judge by their own standard...... out of
pure ego, or concerned that the NBRC will set a standard that is
"lower" than there personal standard. I agree with your view
of the situation and feel the same way. The present system has
carried us this far. If we changed things, while some would be
pleased, some would be NOT pleased, and therein lies the
problem. We can't make everyone happy, no matter what we do....
so we do nothing. I feel we should be able to negotiate a
positive change for the good of the NBRC, but some feel that
things are fine and don't want to change. So, we bicker back and
forth and we whine about this or that. It has been this way from
before I got here and will be this way, long after most of us
are gone. Unfortunately, there are as many opinions as there are
members. It is a wild ride sometimes but just expect it and
enjoy what you can. Just read all these posts on varied subjects
and you will see how much fun this can be and who the ol grumps
are. Smile.
Cliff
#Post#: 1470--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: Joe Asaro
Date: October 18, 2010, 3:09 pm
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J...Don't you thank a guess just maybe might rob the next
highest scorer? ??? and that would make them very >:( I would
thank. ;D Joe
#Post#: 1476--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: MOTHERLODELOFTS
Date: October 18, 2010, 11:37 pm
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No you cannot assume ... unless you don't judge by a standard ..
if you are one of these that judges everything regardless of
quality then it doesn't make much difference.
--- Quote from: J_Star link ---
>
> What this fuss all about? I was gone for the weekend and more
posts about the subject. Before anyone goes in a tangent, please
re-read my post #20 and in particular: “if the birds were flying
up close for a while and you were able to determine the kit
quality and depth, chemistry and work rate, once they fly higher
or away, then you can pretty much assume that the quality and
the depth still the same and you still can score them. That is
if they are with reasonable viewing distance.”
>
> So please don’t put words in my mouth!!
>
> Jay
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 1479--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: J_Star
Date: October 19, 2010, 6:42 am
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Maybe the use of the word "assume" was a poor choise of words.
Substitute it with a word of your liking. Seems most of you hung
up on this word and stopped finish reading the rest of the
paragraph. Hint..read the last sentance of that paragraph and
move on.
If you expect the kit to fly above the property for the first 20
min or so when you judge them, then you are sadly mistaken.
Judging is subjective, and you have to make the best decision as
of how, when and where right on ground zero to be fair to all
competitors and evaluate all the competion enterants equaly with
"Your" judging ideals.
I also said in post #22 "Kim Tappendan kit was also desrving of
a similar score if the kit was not blown away to unscorable
distance. His kit was scored for the first 8 min only and his
score was around 430 points." Maybe I shouldv'e continued on
scoring the kit since the word "assume" was a hangup. Maybe I
should've assumed and continued on scoring....Go figure.
Scott and the likes...Since you promote yourselve as the quality
expert, please share with us your own definition of "Kit
Quality" in competition and let us compare notes...would you!
This could be educational to all and very interesting. I am
ready for a meaningfull discussion.
Jay
#Post#: 1481--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: J_Star
Date: October 19, 2010, 7:00 am
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--- Quote from: J_Star link ---
>
> Maybe the use of the word "assume" was a poor choise of words.
Substitute it with a word of your liking. Seems most of you hung
up on this word and stopped finish reading the rest of the
paragraph. Hint..read the last sentance of that paragraph and
move on.
>
> I also said in post #22 "Kim Tappendan kit was also desrving
of a similar score if the kit was not blown away to unscorable
distance. His kit was scored for the first 8 min only and his
score was around 430 points." Maybe I shouldv'e continued on
scoring the kit since the word "assume" was a hangup. Maybe I
should've assumed and continued on scoring....Go figure.
>
> Scott and the likes...Since you promote yourselve as the
quality expert, please share with us your own definition of "Kit
Quality" in competition and let us compare notes...would you!
This could be educational to all and very interesting.
> Jay
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 1492--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: rollerpigeon1963
Date: October 19, 2010, 3:05 pm
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Guys,
You know this is one of the main reasons I slowed down on
judging. So many people complaining and bickering. I use to
allow 6 to 8 weeks a year judging. Any more its just 3 weeks or
so.
On one of my trips I had a former winner of a high ranking
fly come to me and say your kinda stingy with the points. I
looked him in the eyes and had to laugh at him. Someone that has
won a major fly coming to me and saying that. What am I suppose
to do judge crap or sub-quality birds? come on get real if the
birds are crap call it crap. I don't give mercy points. For one
if I judge a region and someone said man he passed out a score
of 600 points those must have been some great birds because all
he passed out here was 150. And then they go to the persons
place that I just judged from and looked at his birds and they
looked like crop {Quality wise} what is that telling the person.
And if someone scored a 50 and goes to his buddies house who
scored 300 he will hopefully see the big difference.
I might be a tough judge but I judge what is what I call
quality rollers. The are better than an axel roller with speed
that you cant count the revolutions. Now if they are a low X
wing patter their quality points will show it. Now I will not
count a roller that exits the roll from the wrong direction in
which it started. I keep an eye on the out birds. What I mean
when one come from the roll and turns the opposite direction
from which the kit is flying it is an out bird. I will not take
my eyes off the kit but will have the score keeper or time
keeper keep an eye on the out bird. Now if a second bird leaves
the kit I will quit watching the kit and watch the two out birds
until one enters the kit.
Now if the birds get to high I will announce I can't judge
the kit because of either to high or to far away I can't see the
breaks. I do like the owner of the kit stand close to me so he
can hear my commits. I like for him to ask me questions as I'm
judging. I rather tell someone what I'm seeing and he can see
what I'm judging. This way he understands what I am scoring and
what I'm not.
I wont look at a mans birds before the fly. Just for the
simple fact I don't want someone to say he seen I had color
birds and he didn't like them. In the air is all that matters to
me. I don't care if they are green, orange, or pink. If they are
rolling correctly they will be scored.
When your talking wing placement it all is based on quality
points. If they are a X pattern they can't get 1.6 in
mutipliers. I believe if you have a 1.6 the patten needs to be a
high X pattern on of the bird in the kit. So if there is a few
1.2 birds in there then there must be a 1.7 or 1.8 to justify
the 1.6. Now if the birds get to far away where you can't see
the quality of the birds then you can't count it. I will use an
example and I hope he don't mind. Chuck Ball was flying in a fly
and the birds were smoking off in a distance but I couldn't see
the quality so I couldn't score them. I told him that and when
they did get in range I started scoring them again. Birds flying
off in a distance is just as bad as birds flying to high.
Just my opinion and the way I see it
Brian Middaugh
#Post#: 1520--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 20, 2010, 9:11 am
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Brian Thanks for taking your time to help us all better
understand some of these issues involved in judging Rollers.
Cliff
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