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#Post#: 1364--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 14, 2010, 1:00 pm
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Paul,
I couldn't agree more. To my way of thinking Depth has it
place, but style and velocity may be a better, more relevant
trait, indicative of a good roller. I feel many judges realize
that over-use of the multipliers, could have negative
consequences. So, they allow the birds to decide whose best ...
in other words, it seems like the raw score often can be used to
decide the winners. Does that make sense? The multipliers are
more for window dressing or icing on the cake, so to speak.
Ideally we should have three multipliers.
Cliff
#Post#: 1365--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: ezeedad
Date: October 14, 2010, 2:10 pm
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Yes Cliff,
Clearly the "raw" score is what determines the winners. I
put quotation marke on the RAW because it is an extreme
misnomer. Huge multipliers are applied to the number of birds
rolling. So much, in fact, that the cake is fully baked the
dough has risen and its out of the oven ready for the depth and
quality modifiers......whic h just amounts to a thin layer of
frosting and maybe a few sprinkles...
Could you explain how over use of multipliers could have
negative consequences?
Thanks,
Paul
#Post#: 1366--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: J_Star
Date: October 14, 2010, 2:27 pm
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So, what I am reading is that it is not the issue of the
multiplier or the need for more than two, rather it is with the
judges affraid to issue the prpoer and correct multiplier to
compensate the quauality and/or depth accordingly. This tells me
that the process is not broken but the handler of the process
are lacking of the process procedure maintenance (lol).
When I judged my region, I was not afraid to issue 1.5 for
quality and for the depth if the team chemistry, work rate,
quality and depth was deserving of the the high score. Look at
Kip Beard score in the NBRC. He scored over 1004 points and the
kit deserved every bit of it. That kit flew over about 30 people
that day and all approved that the kit was desrving of the high
score. One full turn is worth 100 points. Kim Tappendan kit was
also desrving of a similar score if the kit was not blown away
to unscorable distance. His kit was scored for the first 8 min
only and his score was around 430 points.
Jay
#Post#: 1380--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: wishiwon2
Date: October 14, 2010, 10:42 pm
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--- Quote from: J_Star link ---
> In another note, yes you can not see the quality of the spin
when they are flying high or away almost out of sight. However,
if the birds were flying up close for a while and you were able
to determine the kit quality and depth, chemistry and work rate,
once they fly higher or away, then you can pretty much assume
that the quality and the depth still the same and you still can
score them.
> Jay
>
--- End Quote ---
Jay I have to disagree with you on this. If this is what you're
doing, it is wrong. My birds, and I have seen many other kits do
likewise, will improve in their quality as they perform over 30
minutes. Initially they will roll somewhat rough and choppy but
as they get loosened up and going they get better and better.
They easily go from a 1.1, 1.2 to a 1.5 by the end of judgement
time. You need to make a mental average of the 'overall' quality
of the birds you scored in breaks. I have also judged kits that
went the other way, started out good quality and as they tired
got more sloppy and rolled shorter.
If you cant see them well enough to make a reasonable assesment
of quality, you should stop scoring or possibly score them with
a 1.0 because you couldnt tell how good or poor they were
rolling. Its not your fault they flew too high.
#Post#: 1382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: J_Star
Date: October 15, 2010, 6:41 am
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And I have to disagree with you on this one (lol). Scoring
begins when Time In is called. I begin to form an openion of the
quality and depth of the birds at halfway of flying. If the
birds are in scorable distance, they will continue to be scored,
otherwise scoring stops for that duration of time. You can tell
as a judge or spectator if the quality of the kit will fall
apart in the last 10 min or not from the performnce they were
showing. However, when you have a kit that is hammering it for
the first 10 min, I can assure you that performance will
continue through out if the kit doesn't go flat. The proof is
when the the kit decide to come back fly above in the last few
seconds of scoring and they still are hammaring it as they were
before they flew away or high up.
Jay
#Post#: 1418--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: wishiwon2
Date: October 16, 2010, 12:05 pm
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Wow, I am surprised and somewhat dissappointed you would score
something you cannot clearly see. From your quote, you are
assuming they are doing something, not actually seeing it. Would
you assume that a kit you judged one week would perform in the
same fashion the next week? or how about if you had seen them
performing all season long? You have to score what you can see
and if you cannot see it, you cannot score it. Scoring based on
assumptions gets you/judges in hot water fast.
#Post#: 1433--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 16, 2010, 11:30 pm
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Jay
Each individual judge develops his own "JUDGING PHYLOSOPHY"
using his personal experiences and their interpretation of the
rules. As long as the judge actually can see what the kit is
doing, see the birds clearly, can tell if the wing positions are
meeting his standard and see if any faults committed, he will do
well. If any questions start to creep in, he starts to question
his own calls, his philosophy may change so he feels comfortable
again with his judging skills.
No guessing games, just an honest assessment of what is
actually observed.... is the best philosophy, I have found.
Cliff
#Post#: 1434--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: Cliff Ball
Date: October 16, 2010, 11:36 pm
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Judges have to realize, by guessing if the kit/bird/birds did it
right OR did it wrong, the chance of error is 50%, if it was not
clearly observed.
To my way of thinking , it is better to not count what you can't
be sure of. Many times the flyer cannot be responsible for
Trees, houses, fences, high winds, BOP other obstructions/ acts
of nature. But one of the basic tenets of Roller scoring is
keeping the kit within easy scoring distance of the judge. The
judge should NOT score what he is not sure of.
And it is just that simple. The judges "opinion" of the average
D&Q is based solely on the D&Q observed by the birds that
scored. D&Q of birds that did not score is to be ignored and
not used in the judges overall opinion. Performance that goes on
before time in and after time is called ....... should never be
used in the judges determinations either.
Cliff
#Post#: 1436--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: Sound Rollers
Date: October 17, 2010, 1:16 am
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Cliff, how come there is not a standard? "Interpretation of the
rules" sounds ridiculous.
--- Quote from: Cliff Ball link ---
>
>
> Jay
> Each individual judge develops his own "JUDGING PHYLOSOPHY"
using his personal experiences and their interpretation of the
rules. As long as the judge actually can see what the kit is
doing, see the birds clearly, can tell if the wing positions are
meeting his standard and see if any faults committed, he will do
well. If any questions start to creep in, he starts to question
his own calls, his philosophy may change so he feels comfortable
again with his judging skills.
> No guessing games, just an honest assessment of what is
actually observed.... is the best philosophy, I have found.
> Cliff
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 1437--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
DIR By: Ty Coleman
Date: October 17, 2010, 8:17 am
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--- Quote from: John link ---
>
> Cliff, how come there is not a standard? "Interpretation of
the rules" sounds ridiculous.
>
> [quote author=Cliff Ball link=topic=128.msg1433#msg1433
date=1287289850]
>
> Jay
> Each individual judge develops his own "JUDGING PHYLOSOPHY"
using his personal experiences and their interpretation of the
rules. As long as the judge actually can see what the kit is
doing, see the birds clearly, can tell if the wing positions are
meeting his standard and see if any faults committed, he will do
well. If any questions start to creep in, he starts to question
his own calls, his philosophy may change so he feels comfortable
again with his judging skills.
> No guessing games, just an honest assessment of what is
actually observed.... is the best philosophy, I have found.
> Cliff
>
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
John, this goes back to the reason I started the thread.We have
a standard, but our standard is to vague. We all can read it and
all of us have a different opinion on what it means. We[the
NBRC] need to adopt a competition standard to judge our birds by
to put the flyers and the judge on the same page.I have read
this topic on alot of list, and forum's and no one is on the
same page, that is a problem for our hobby. Some judges are way
to loose and some are way to tight[ my opinion], they are not
consistant and need to be on the same page.
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