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#Post#: 1254--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Ross Howard Date: October 11, 2010, 12:08 pm
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[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=128.msg1250#msg1250
date=1286813935]
No Cliff .. you are not getting just someones opinion .. the
variables come from those that judge by no standard to those
that judge by a standard.
And that is what scares people on certifying judges.. who is
going to be the certifying ? The "score everything " judges ? or
those that judge by a standard ?
Scott
[/quote]. Sounds just like Fancy pigeon judging to me or any
kind of judging where a time clock is not used
#Post#: 1256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 11, 2010, 1:19 pm
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Ross,
You are correct in that it is a subjective and visual impression
which can be impacted by personal bias and esthetic appeal. But
it is also a timed event; a minimum of 15 minutes to a maximum
of 20 minutes.
Cliff
#Post#: 1258--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Ross Howard Date: October 11, 2010, 1:58 pm
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What I meant by timed event was stop watch racing type time like
individual horse events etc animal against the clock only
shortest time wins. Roller comp judging is done in a allowable
time frame using human judges & everyones different. When I was
in performance horses & show pigeons , dogs & cattle I picked
who I would judge under I know this can't be done in roller comp
( not enough flys to go to With different judges ) so yu takes
want yu get I quess ? :-)
#Post#: 1259--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 11, 2010, 2:05 pm
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Pretty much, Ross. Most judges do a darn good job. But the ones
on the extremes of being too tight or too loose tend to generate
this controversy about the rules. I understand the effort of a
few judges to keep the bar raised extrememly high, but then I
also understand the frustration of flyers who compete (against
very difficult odds) and then find that scoreable performance
does not get scored, or flyers who get beat by a kit of
twizzlers.
Cliff
#Post#: 1262--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Ross Howard Date: October 11, 2010, 2:15 pm
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Understand Cliff thanks for your thoughts. I'll always remember
what an old cowboy
I rode with in Alberta Canada. He said ' If every man was the
same that one woman would be awful tired ' :-) In the Fancy.
Ross
#Post#: 1263--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 11, 2010, 2:54 pm
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Ross LOL! Good point! Well, each region chooses what judge
they invite. But not so in the finals. We do the best we can
with what we got to work with, after all this is a volunteer
army. We do try to keep the judges from spending any of their
money on food, transportation and lodging. And we have strict
rules regarding any negative treatment of a judge while on duty.
All the judges do their best to evaluate the birds, but with
the lack of written standards, the scores do fluctuate from time
to time. We gripe and argue about it but nothing comes of it.
You pays your money and takes your chances. Try it if you can,
cause it can be fun. Cliff
#Post#: 1270--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Ty Coleman Date: October 11, 2010, 7:09 pm
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Cliff, I wish I could get my point across as well as you have. I
just can't seem to word it as you do. I hope no one took offense
to my post and they were not directed at anyone imparticular, We
just need a written standard !!!!!!
#Post#: 1284--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 12, 2010, 10:57 am
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Thanks, Ty, for the acknowledgement. I can't see where you said
anything offensive. Like you said....it's a debate.
Cliff
#Post#: 1285--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: deepwithspeed Date: October 12, 2010, 11:38 am
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Ty,
When it says that "loose" and "sloppy" rolls should not be
scored, what does that mean to you? Birds with their wings
sticking out, are "loose" and "sloppy" rollers.
DeepWithSpeed
#Post#: 1287--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 12, 2010, 2:00 pm
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DeepWithSpeed,
Not to speak for Ty but, yes, generally speaking, loose,
sloppy performance should not be scored. BUT....although an X
style spinner shows more wing than I like, if it is fast enough
and deep enough , many judges will score this type of
performance if there are no other flaws. There are varying
degrees of scoreable wing styles and identifying them depends on
the judge, his experience, the accuracy of his eye-sight, his
vantage point in relationship to the spinnng bird, and the
distance from the judge (usually relative to flying height.)
From what I know, X, A, H and ball style rollers , if they are
fast enough and deep enough.... should be scored....barr ing any
other obvious flaws. Ty's question, as I understand it,
centered around why a judge would not score X,H,and A style
performace with speed and depth, just because his personal
standard is that only a ball spinner should score.
Hope this helps,
Cliff
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