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#Post#: 1236--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: BigShawn Date: October 10, 2010, 9:18 pm
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Cliff what do you think about certifing judges to a set
standard? Or does that go back to changing the wording? shawn
#Post#: 1237--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: October 10, 2010, 9:21 pm
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[font=bookman old style]Cliff ... only by those that have not
been properly mentored.. teach them right and this would be a
non issue.
( Right now your "UNIVERSAL" opinion is NOT so universal, but is
an opinion who a majority of flyers share and it needs to be
addressed in the fly rules so it is known by all who fly
competition. THEN... it's universal. smile)
[/font]
#Post#: 1242--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Jay Knepp Date: October 11, 2010, 7:50 am
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Scott
To me it is still a non-issue......breed the best birds I know
how....fly them in competition....LET THE RESULTS BE MY REPORT
CARD......after all this is a hobby is it not????? Jay
#Post#: 1244--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 11, 2010, 7:57 am
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Scott,
If all mentors held the same opinions on all the controversial
issues found within the NBRC, then I would agree with you. But
that is not the case. We have major differences in opinions from
region to region and even among flyers within a few regions.
Until the NBRC takes the bull by the horns , and sets policy and
the flyers approve that policy, these pissing contests will be
constant and on-going. I just accept the fact that controversy
exists and opinions are varied. I expect each NBRC member to be
very careful who they listen to as a mentor. We have many self
proclaimed "experts" on this or that, but few who know how to
really try to negotiate through this maze of mis-information.
The history of Roller flyers, shows us these unsettled issues
have gone on before we got here, and will be here after we are
gone.While I agree with some of your opinions, they are just
that.... an opinion. It needs to be written into the fly rules
for all to read and understand. Opinions are NOT fly rules, Fly
Rules are Fly Rules. If we are going to have a controversy,
let's at least put it down in writing first and vote on it. Ty's
opinion is just as valid as yours at this stage of the game. If
all these grays areas were reduced to writing, much of this
confusion would go away. Learning from hearsay and oppinions
that vary depending on who you talk to is just looking for
trouble. In my humble opinion. :0)
Cliff
#Post#: 1245--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 11, 2010, 8:27 am
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Big Shawn,
My "OPINION" is, that the NBRC should set the standards for
the judges/flyers to follow. Then more flyers and judges will
all be on the same page. With each different judge , we have the
possibility of different standards, maybe slight or maybe very
significant and very different from the norm. Right now , it is
a guessing game. Yes, certifying judges is the obvious solution.
The problem is that there is too much fear, among some, that
judges will not bother with the hassle to become certified, so
we will not have enough certified judges to get the job done, so
the fear reigns. When you "enter a fly" you are paying for a
man to come to your loft and evaluate your birds. You are
getting another "OPINION" about your birds. This opinion is
based on his estimating numbers and his average of Quality and
Depth observed, of those birds that performed, to "HIS"
standard. Add to this, you, as a flier DO NOT KNOW what his
standard is, 'till he gives you your score . Subjective is what
the rules call it. I tend to look at it like Forest Gump looked
at life, A competition fly is like a box of chocolates. You
never know what you will get....... I try to enjoy the
experience, the men who fly...learn from my mistakes and look
forward to the next fly. Like Jay said...it's only a hobby.....
Cliff
#Post#: 1246--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: BigShawn Date: October 11, 2010, 10:27 am
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Cliff thanks for sharing. I have never flown in comp. But plan
to in "11. I'm just not ready right now. I was just trying to
find out what judges are looking for in a kit. Shawn
#Post#: 1249--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 11, 2010, 10:52 am
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Shawn,
It's good to hear that you are planning to put a kit up in 2011.
Competition will put your training and management skills on the
fast track and focus your efforts in your breeding program, as
well as help you get acquainted with guys in your areas that fly
rollers. And that's all good. Fly the best birds you have, get
them in condition and hope for the best. You may loose a few
birds to BOP and you may make a few mistakes setting them up,
like all the rest of us. But we do this because it is a
challenge and a fun hobby.
Best of luck,
Cliff
#Post#: 1250--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: MOTHERLODELOFTS Date: October 11, 2010, 11:18 am
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No Cliff .. you are not getting just someones opinion .. the
variables come from those that judge by no standard to those
that judge by a standard.
And that is what scares people on certifying judges.. who is
going to be the certifying ? The "score everything " judges ? or
those that judge by a standard ?
Scott
#Post#: 1252--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: Cliff Ball Date: October 11, 2010, 11:35 am
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Well, you call it a standard, I call it an opinion. The fact is,
whatever name you give it, it varies all over the place,
depending on the man doing the judging, and that is the problem.
We see a disucssion taking place on another list where guys are
complaining that one judge says he will not score H and A
pattern rollers, only a ball, and flyers that believe that they
should be scored (the H and A pateerns) and some that say that
the judge is within his rights to only score a ball spinner.
Then we have seen a World Cup winner who says he would score an
axle if it were fast. Again, these are all examples of varying
opinions, or varying standards. And they are all correct and
proper within the current system of rules, depending on the
judge at hand. NOBODY'S standard or opinion is any more valid
than anyone else's. Every judge can call it like he wants.
That's the real problem.
Write out your "STANDARD" to the point everyone will know what
wing style you consider good better and best. Write out your
minimum standard for a bird BEFORE it can score. Write it out
just like it needs to be and we can all see what your standard
is and I bet it will be good enough for most of us. But you
won't know till you write it out. When I refer to a judge's
opinion, it is because there is NO WRITEN standard for the judge
to follow. Since the judge , judges to "HIS" standard not a NBRC
standard, it will always be a judge's opinion. Once the NBRC
writes out a judging standard, then the judge will judge to that
standard and we will all know the standard. Right now , we
have nothing to validate any judge's opinion. If you feel
certain judges are not judging the way you think they should,
help us get it in writing, so poor judges can get better and
good judges can get the credit they are due. If you want less
subjectivity and more credibility.... Let's get it in writing.
"The variables come from those that judge by no standard"
Well....write up a standard so we can help these poor souls.
Cliff
#Post#: 1253--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wing position
By: BigShawn Date: October 11, 2010, 11:39 am
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[quote author=MOTHERLODELOFTS link=topic=128.msg1250#msg1250
date=1286813935]
No Cliff .. you are not getting just someones opinion .. the
variables come from those that judge by no standard to those
that judge by a standard.
And that is what scares people on certifying judges.. who is
going to be the certifying ? The "score everything " judges ? or
those that judge by a standard ?
Scott
[/quote] Like I said in a earlier post, pick one judge that is
consistant and not political on how he judges. Then have him be
the certifier. Have a hand full of judges picked by fliers and
have them go and judge kits together and see how they score
against the first judge. They would have to be within a certain
% of him over a set amount of judging kits together before judge
#1 certifies them. mind you everyone would have to vote him to
be the #1 judge. But have everyone recertifie every 3-4 years
just to make sure they are staying within the standard of
judging flys. And that there not judging on there own. I know it
would take alot of work for sommething like this to happenn but
I think it would all be worth it when it happens. But what do I
know I've never flown in comp. It's just me looking from the
outside in. Shawn
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