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#Post#: 12048--------------------------------------------------
Food and rolling
DIR By: Roller lover
Date: December 26, 2012, 10:40 am
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Can anyone tell me if food affects rolling? My rollers roll but
not too frequent and not too deep. I feed normal racing mix.
#Post#: 12049--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food and rolling
DIR By: LittleJohn
Date: December 26, 2012, 11:27 am
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Food does affect rolling.
So does the condition of the birds. Give some detailed
information about how long your birds are flying,how often do
you fly them... flying high, flying low? What pattern are they
flying and are they flying fast or slow? How old are these
birds and how long have you worked with them?
Have you asked the person you got them from how to feed that
particular family for maximum performance?
This information may help others to give you some ideas on
things you may try.
LittleJohn
#Post#: 12050--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food and rolling
DIR By: Roller lover
Date: December 26, 2012, 1:27 pm
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All birds are younger then 8months some just two months old.
They roll already, some very good but not frequent nor deep.
They train once or twice daily for 20-30min. Been training till
september as i am new in this, they form quite a tight group and
can go high if its not windy. They fly pretty fast little less
then homers.
#Post#: 12052--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food and rolling
DIR By: LittleJohn
Date: December 27, 2012, 6:26 am
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oldest birds are 8 months and youngest are two months...couple
of things you can do...read every book you can get your hands
on...give some specific answers to specific questions...and have
lots of patience.
Find a mentor who can help you along the way. There is no
easy button in this hobby. There is no special feed which will
add depth and frequency ...especially to birds who are not even
physically developed yet to be able to handle the roll.
There are plenty of books on how to raise and train these
rollers, as a matter of fact....look to the left and scroll
down...there's a book right there that will help you out
immensly.
That's my recommendation. I hope it helps.
LittleJohn
#Post#: 12054--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food and rolling
DIR By: Roller lover
Date: December 27, 2012, 8:35 am
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Thanks a lot for your help
#Post#: 12057--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food and rolling
DIR By: wishiwon2
Date: December 29, 2012, 3:53 pm
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--- Quote from: Roller lover link ---
>
> Can anyone tell me if food affects rolling? My rollers roll
but not too frequent and not too deep. I feed normal racing mix.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, feed has an effect on roll performance, both composition
and volume of feed. Also as LJ pointed out, physical condition
has an affect. I would add that "state of mind" has an effect,
although that aspect can be harder to manage.
With the mixed ages in your kit (2 mo-8 mo), it will be hard to
get them all responding to feed and training inputs the same.
They are on various stages of roll development and
physical/mental maturity. Im not saying it cant be done, but for
learning what affect your managment inputs have, the results
will be a little inconsistent. There is no substitute for
experience. I was able to learn best what my management inputs
did, on birds well into the roll, because they were more
predictable and I could see that athe change was from what I had
done, not from youthful variations in performance.
There is so much to say about feeding and training and I dont
have the typing skills or patience to write it all out. It takes
years to apply and understand. Not that its so technical or
difficult, but because there are so many variables, many of
which are uncontrolable. I will try and share a condensed
overview, but suggest you search this site and others for more
info and dont take what I tell as gospel.
To begin, you need to understand the nature of the bloodline
you're flying. Get that info from the person you got your birds
from. If they are a hot family, one that has lots and lots of
roll impulse, you will likely need to 'feed them up' (both
quality and quantity of feed) to keep them stable. Stronger
lines of birds will need fed down a little. Different bloodlines
will each react a bit differently to various feed and training
inputs.
As a general principle, you are aiming for a balance in your
feed and fly routines. Too much or too rich of feed and too much
training and your kits performance will diminish, frequency goes
down, depth shortens up and teamwork decreases. This is a result
of the birds having enough strength (mental and physical) to
resist or fly through the impulse to roll. Insufficient feed or
fly time and the performance diminishes too, but in different
ways. Rolls become ragged, and at inappropriate times like
landing, sometimes dangerous, teamwork decreases, flying time
shortens up.
These birds are very habitual. It is rare to turn a kit from
sour to sweet performance overnight. It takes days and weeks of
fine tuning. In general, I want my youngbird kits to fly 40
minutes. Once they are flying/kitting well, I never let them
land at under 20 minutes, if they do I flag them up immediately.
If they are flying near an dhour or longer I start to cut back
their ration. Once they have formed a habit of flying duration
and height, they will be much, much easier to manipulate
performance on as they mature. I dont fly more than once a day.
some say it brings the onset of rolling earlier, I have tested
that and not found it to be true. I dont want my birds coming
into rolling early either, 4 - 8 or 9 months is just fine with
me.
You cannot keep a kit at peak or maximum performance condition
indefinately. Good managers can hold them near peak for a couple
of weeks tops. So expect flucuations in performance, they are
natural and necessary. The trick is planning when they peak and
when they are off-line.
Different grains have varied effects on birds flight and
perfromance. Please recognize what I am about to write is what I
have found in my birds and may very well not apply to yours.
Wheat-the staple grain, the provider of most of the energy and
nutrition needed. I prefer hard red wheat. I use it as the
'controller' to regulate flight speed and height. It contributes
to faster and higher flying, tightens kitting. It is a medium
digestible grain, meaning it takes 2 days or so to see the
effects of change. Milo-a high carb grain that is easily
digested (1 day) it adds to flying height and if feed in high
porportions leads to shorter flight times, slower flying, more
initial frequency rolling. If fed continuosly as the major
grain, birds will lose weight and muscle tone. Safflower-
similar to milo in its effect. Peas - higher protein seed,
slower to digest (2-3 days). Peas have a variable effect
depending on the condition of the bird when added. In general
they add strength, which adds to tightness of roll, less
frequency, shorter depth. Initally peas casue my kit to fly
lowere and slower, over several days they elevate, fly longer.
Eventually if fed straight peas they lose weight and barely even
roll, flying very short duration, low. Millet- is like rocket
fuel. In small portions it causes birds to fly higher and
frequency increases but teamwork suffers. Excersise caution with
millet, it can cause overflys and odd kit behaviours. Barley-
slows flight speed, reduces quality med digest seed. Corn -
reduces performance in all ways. In my birds it almost
completely stops rolling. I almost never give corn to my flying
kits. My young kits typically get a ration of 60% wheat 25-30%
milo 10-15% peas by volume with an occasional handful of saff.
A comment on feeding mixes. If you want to know how feed affects
your birds/kits, you must feed individual grains. If you feed a
mix, birds will select grains they prefer over others and your
results will but unpredictable. There are lots of guys who feed
mixes, but those consistently winning fly competitions feed
individual grains so they can make changes in their birds. It
will also affect your choices as you pick future breeders. If
you fed a mix, you will be making performance choices based on
different input criteria from bird to bird.
Since this thread is about training young birds, I want to
insert my opinion here. It is very easy to breed over cooked,
unstable birds that roll and roll and roll. some may be great
quality and style or depth but will evetually crash and burn.
They be fed max nutrition to keep them off the ground and in the
kit. In my opinion these are worthless and limit your ability as
a manager, because you can only go 1 direction. It is much more
difficult to breed birds that are full of roll, but stable and
respond to management. Be aware of how young birds handle their
roll development and changes in their routine. Those that can
fly in any kind of weather, steady and reliable on different
feeds and fly frequency and then mature out to be top performers
are the most desirable to breed from in the future.
Sorry for the length, more to say but tired of writing.
Jon
#Post#: 12062--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food and rolling
DIR By: Roller lover
Date: December 30, 2012, 5:51 am
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Wow very informative thanks, thats what i was looking for which
grain affects what. Thanks
#Post#: 12064--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food and rolling
DIR By: nephilim
Date: December 30, 2012, 8:19 am
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This is such a good topic.
You'll have a thousand
different answers to the same question. Can I suggest
Rollerlover that you look up the All England roller club
website, you might find something on there. I feed my birds
differently to that stated by wishiwon2, in as much I don't feed
any peas to my birds until I start to get them ready for
breeding, by peas I'm talking about maple peas, I never feed any
maize to my birds. The reason with maize is that even the
smallest type is a bit difficult for them to digest. As for peas
it adds muscle thus making a heavier bird that has to put more
effort into flying and less into performing. I would add that
give your birds the best food you can afford to buy. I wouldn't
recommend buying wheat or barley from farms, as this food has
not been cleaned and has more likely to have had vermin crawling
all over it. And anyone on here that's had a mouse in their seed
will till you, your birds will lose condition and become thin
and die in a few days, because the rat and mouse is incontinent
and is therefore constantly urinating on the grain they're
running over. Cheap food is false economy.
As already stated the strain of your
birds will be a big factor in how they perform. Most of my birds
are Birkett strain in origin and they don't start to perform
until 9 months and a year! So I know that I wont have any action
from them for a while. Also have you ever kept any other type of
pigeon? I ask because if you've ever kept and raced pigeons,
then everything you learnt from raising their young can be
thrown out the window, as you don't want super athletes that can
fly hundreds of miles, you want slender little things weighing
around 7 oz that fly like fluttering butterflies and roll tight
and fast.
Good luck with whatever you try, but I
wouldn't worry to much, just yet. Let them learn to kit and fly
get them used to you and your was, then start to change their
food gradually over a few week and make sure you have a journal
to record each and ever change you make and the reactions that
produce. I would even goes as far as to say, that these continue
as they are read and learn as much as you can, try and visit a
few competition flyers and compare their birds to yours, and ask
as many questions you can, no matter how dumb you think they may
be.
Finally to add to your other post on good or bad rollers.
there's only bad management, as all tumbling/rolling birds have
the genes to perform, you've just got to hone that desire and
improve it. It's as simple as that! LOL But the route may be
long, hard and at times frustrating, but don't give up, learn
and improve my friend.
Keep them spinning, yours in sport
Gary
#Post#: 12068--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food and rolling
DIR By: Roller lover
Date: December 30, 2012, 9:21 pm
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Thank you for your reply and info. Yes i kept and still have
racingpigeons and kings. But i am new to rollers. Still not
quite sue what selections to make to have the good kit.
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