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DIR Return to: Establishing A New Breed Standard
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#Post#: 11976--------------------------------------------------
When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Cliff Ball Date: November 29, 2012, 2:22 pm
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Last night, while reading through my collection of Pensom
articles to answer an individual's question, about Pensom’s
efforts at breed outcrossing to improve the Birmingham Roller, I
ran across several other articles Pensom wrote that speaks to
this particular thread concerning the creation and development
of the Birmingham Roller pigeon. I always try to read these in
an effort to understand the man,William H Pensom, separating him
from the diety status to which some in our sport have elevated
him. I will keep my comments brief and let each of you make up
your own minds about where you think he was coming from as the
BR was being developed.
Bear in mind as you read these excerpts, the definition of a
breed. A breed is a specific group of animals which are
genotypically and phenotypically sufficiently similar;
possessing a homogeneous appearance, behavior, and other
characteristics that distinguish it from other animals of the
same species. When bred together, animals of the same breed
consistently pass on these predictable traits to their
offspring. This requirement-known as “breeding true”-is a
requirement for status as a breed. In most countries each breed
is managed by a breed society which maintains a register of the
animals that are members of the breed, and which animals shall
be admitted to the register. The breed society also sets the
standards for physical appearance and performance that must be
attained.
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In “The Feathered World of England”, Nov 8, 1931, Pensom writes:
“….Of actual performing pigeons, there are many varieties, but
those which concern me most are the common flying Tumbler and
the British Roller, or perhaps a more familiar name is the
Birmingham Roller until the NPA rightly stepped in and gave it
what I think is the proper name, i.e. the “British Roller”…….The
question of crossing with Orientals now crops up. I say,
definitely, that this is not necessary. It shows no improvement
in the performance (they will improve the common Tumbler). The
performance of the Oriental, from what I have seen, are detached
and this is in opposition to the British Roller. Anyone who is
well acquainted with British Rollers laughs at the idea of
crossing with Orientals….”
And then in “Pigeons of England”, Jan 28, 1932 Pensom writes:
“We learn from old literature of the various types of rollers
that existed, and still exist in different parts of the world,
but little mention is made of the Birmingham Roller. Some
writers advance the theory that the Birmingham Roller was
evolved from crosses including the Oriental, Tippler, and
Cumulet. There is no doubt that the Oriental played a big part
in its construction, and evidence of this is displayed in the
occasional throwbacks which occur. At the present time, it is up
to fanciers to further improve this game little pigeon where the
old fanciers left off. I am afraid that this breed has been
sadly neglected.”
Then in “The Feathered World of England”, July 29, 1932:
“Seeing that H. Mitchell does not favour the name British High
Flying Tumbler and Roller, and that I am responsible for this
suggestion, let me point out that we are not making an
alteration, as the variety has never had a recognized name, and
the great majority of birds in Birmingham today do not answer to
the description of a true Birmingham. They are mostly known as
Tumblers, which is a correct definition of them”
In “American Pigeon Keeper” in July, 1934, he writes:
“I want readers to thoroughly understand that at the moment it
is the Birmingham Roller with which I am concerned. The
definition of same, we are all familiar with; namely that
outlined by the late Lewis Wright. I have no fear that we need
to seek further than this description. From his assertion, which
we know to be correct, we learn that, “ a Birmingham Roller can
only be so termed from it performance in the air, and it is here
where the difficulties of most fanciers lie, chiefly through an
insufficient pursuit of the performance of such a bird,
resulting in the most regrettable state of affairs of calling
anything that is bred a ‘roller’ whether it performs or not.”
Except in rare instances, pedigree without performance is
worthless and to allude to well-bred poor performers as
“Rollers” one might just as well call a Modena a Strasser”.
And finally, a late as 1951 in the APJ he wrote an article on
“The Development of Birmingham Rollers”:
“Birmingham Rollers can be found with more than 12 feathers in
the tail. They are rare these days, but I would value one very
much if it came up to other expectations. A roller is valued for
what it is in the air and not because it has one too many
feathers in the tail. The roller may occasionally be found with
webbed feet, odd eyes, and several unusual shades of color,
which I know have been the cause of fanciers getting rid of such
birds. There is no greater mistake. There is no doubt the
tumbler and roller are the result of numerous crossings of
various breeds addicted to making somersaults and in consequence
it is to be expected that we shall sometimes produce birds that
are throwbacks to their ancestors.”
=====
As the reader, contemplate the answers to a few questions that
arise.
1: When is a crossbred animal considered a breed and when do we
stop thinking about them as composites or hybrids?
2: Based on these writings, at that time, do you think Pensom
considered the British Roller or the Birmingham Roller as a
breed or a work in progress?
3: What do you think is the basis for Pensom’s definition of the
BR as a breed; pedigree, genotype, phenotype,or performance?
4: Do YOU, personally, think the BR qualified as a breed or a
work in progress at the time of these writings, as late as 1951?
5: When, in your opinion, did the BR become a breed?
6: What is the basis for that determination; pedigree, genotype,
phenotype, or performance?
Cliff
(Layout edited for readability by Moderator ;D )
#Post#: 11977--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Tony Chavarria Date: November 29, 2012, 3:58 pm
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1: I think you supply the answer to question #1 with your own
definition, what is your resource? Anyway here is what you said:
"A breed is a specific group of animals which are genotypically
and phenotypically sufficiently similar; possessing a
homogeneous appearance, behavior, and other characteristics that
distinguish it from other animals of the same species. When
bred together, animals of the same breed consistently pass on
these predictable traits to their offspring. This
requirement-known as “breeding true”
2: In the first quote dated year 1931 you provided Pensom says
the NPA recognized it as a breed although no mention of a date
is indicated for that.
3: Phenotype as "performance" is one of the attributes of the
breeds phenotype.
4: My opinion based on the writing you provided is that it was a
breed in 1931 or before.
5: See my answer to question #4
6: Phenotype: a bird that turns over backward with inconceivable
rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball.
That's the proof of the genotype! This is what described the
bird and what we are after and this was apparently in existence
as least as early as your 1931 Pensom quote. When did Lewis
Wright pen his book the "Practical Pigeon Keeper" that included
this quote (1800's???)? So I think it is fair to extrapolate
that at least by then, the BR had a breed standard that was
recognized in that time.
My opinion is that any changes introduced through other
out-crosses as are taking away from the original breed that was
established.
PS: Can I be on the Breed Society? ;)
#Post#: 11980--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Cliff Ball Date: December 1, 2012, 11:21 pm
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Appreciate the response, Tony. In that first quote from 1931,
Pensom call them a "variety" and indicates that they have been
named British Rollers by the NPA. It would seem to me that had
then been an established breed since the late 1800's as some
have led us to believe, then the name of the breed would not be
in doubt, not only recently applied around 1931. In #3, you say
phenotype is performance? I always understood phenotype to
represent the physical expression of the genotype...the actual
physical make-up.#4 & #5: The accepted definition of a breed, as
I described at the beginning, requires that a "breed" breed
true....consistently passing on their homogeneous traits. If
Pensom identified rollers with 12 tailfeathers and other
throwbacks, it doesn't sound like they were consistently
breeding true as of yet. I know this flies in the face of what
we generally hear about the breed having been around since the
1800s with Louis Wright's description of performance, but.....
Cliff
#Post#: 11982--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Tony Chavarria Date: December 4, 2012, 9:41 pm
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I don’t think that they are a breed is the question so much as
to what to call them. The name Birmingham Roller won out.
#3, yes, phenotype the physical expression of the genotype and
as we define the breed by a particular gene expression (tumble
gene resulting in a particular behavior) and probably a few
others that are the soft expression (behavioral) of the genotype
ergo you get my use of the term: phenotype.
As for breeding true, any animal is capable of producing
“mutations”, however it does not mean they are not breeding
“true” as a group. The one off bird here and there is always
going to come up with something different. After 20 years with
my birds I have 2 birds that are very groused legged, only the
two ever.
I just don’t think the facts as you laid them out are going to
say what you want them to say. ;D
#Post#: 11986--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Cliff Ball Date: December 5, 2012, 7:47 am
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I'm just asking questions, Tony, not trying to say anything in
particular......
Cliff
#Post#: 11987--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Tony Chavarria Date: December 5, 2012, 8:56 am
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Hi Cliff, my apologies I guess I'm remembering old debates where
my impression was always one that felt you didn't buy into the
BR as a breed based on genotype so much as on "true" performance
which justified the color rollers as being considered bonafide
Birmingham Rollers provided they performed in a "true" manner.
:-[
#Post#: 11988--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Cliff Ball Date: December 5, 2012, 10:03 am
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Ah, yes, the old days! Yes, I do believe the BR is a breed based
on genotype. I'm just a little curious as to when that occurred
based on their history. I also believe that certain lines of
the rollers with added color modifiers are, indeed, Birmingham
Rollers, assuming they have been bred properly....i.e. back to
the orginal breed for 7-8 generations, when the geneticists tell
us the genotype is so close to pure that the difference is
negligible. And of course they satisfy the qualification of
phenotype and breeding true, in addition to the performance
standard.
Cliff
#Post#: 11989--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Tony Chavarria Date: December 5, 2012, 11:57 am
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Hi Cliff, might it be intellectually honest and perhaps a bit
logical to say the breed was already established before the
description coined by Lewis Wright was published in 1901 p.128?
In the encyclopedia "The Pigeon" by Levi he makes mention of the
year and page of Lewis Wright's description in his book and
another publication mentioning the breed by Woods in 1895,
p.162.
The Pigeon by Levi p.207:
"Probably the exact origin of the Birmingham Roller will always
remain in doubt owing to the lack of sufficient coetaneous
(...time period...ME) literature upon the subject."
I think it would be accurate to say that with the literature we
have available to us in 2012, it is safe to say the Birmingham
Roller was a "breed" no later than 1895. Further attempts to
"improve" on the breed by crossing in other breeds in no way
diminishes the 1895 year. In addition, ongoing efforts to
"improve" does not by necessity prove that the breed was not
complete, simply someone or a group wanting something more.
#Post#: 11990--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a Breed a Breed?
By: Cliff Ball Date: December 5, 2012, 12:54 pm
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Good references and good points made, Tony.
Cliff
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