DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Roller Pigeons
HTML https://rollerpigeon.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 11748--------------------------------------------------
Breeding of the future
DIR By: KevinM
Date: October 7, 2012, 4:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Doing some quick research on previous posts, I found that some
breeders will try to produce 8-12 young per season out of any
one pair of breeders.
What is the maximum offspring(of any one pair) you have raised
in a season or year(depending how long you breed... specify
number and breeding season duration)?
Proving a bird as a good/great/fantastic roller is usually done
in the air and in the loft. One question asked is can they
produce offspring like themselves or better.
In order to answer, this question, you breed that bird or pair
of birds and record the results off their offspring(very
simplified approach here). But how well can that be done at the
status quo? Given the above estimations, 8-12 young per
pair/year (most likely split by age of 2 or more weeks) may make
tracking the offspring which are different age and even in
different kits difficult(.... depending... for arguments sake).
What I would like to see in the future is being able to collect
all your genetics and store them(fertilized eggs) until they can
be set and hatched all at once. What are the potential benefits
for this?
Flying out birds of the same lineage of the same age, raised
under similar conditions, food, season et.c sets the bar for
UNIFORMITY and focusing on one optimal pair.
As it is now, is there any breeder that has the birds that could
be put under such scrutiny? Ex: can you take any one pair and
raise an entire kit from them and it be a good kit? Are our
birds still genetically variable that 12 pairs or more of
breeders that have 8-12 offspring of their own needed to find
the birds that we want to continue breeding. (this varies again
with breeder) and over time perhaps we find that we can raise
from 1 or 2 pair and that be enough. Is anyone there yet?
This is all a conversation starter and I know there are bunches
of "it depends" based on the wants of the breeder from his birds
and what he wants to see flying above the loft. I would love to
be able to create a system of proving birds where an entire
kit(uniform age, environment etc.) can be raised from just one
pair of birds, flown out, and proven.
#Post#: 11751--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding of the future
DIR By: wishiwon2
Date: October 7, 2012, 6:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Kevin, I am probably not a good source for answering your
questions because some of my practices and ideas run contrary to
conventional wisdom and to the line of your questioning.
I have had a few pairings over the years that I would liked to
have flown a full kit of offspring out of, for the sake of a
competition kit, that is. I dont practice keeping 'click'
pairings together. Instead, I purposefully switch mates yr to yr
and sometimes within the same breeding season. I dont practice
inbreeding. I do like a close and defined family or line. If I
only used 1 or 2 pairs as you sugggest through your question, it
would force me into breeding closer than I prefer in order to
perpetuate the family line. Instead, I am searching for (and
have found a few) birds that produce well on nearly any mate.
Thus in my future, I will have many half-bro/sis and cousins to
move forward with all from prepotent producers.
Your questions suggest that timing of the hatch is a critical
factor in estimating or evaluating young bird development and
eventual success. That may be true if your flying season is
severely shortened by BOP pressure or weather extremes. I am
able for the most part, to fly year 'round. Yes, there are some
differences in development from my first to middle to last
rounds of the season, but most all of the variances get
equalized over the second yr of flying. I dont make long term
decisions about my breeders based on 1 or even a partial seaosn
of flying young. I make them based on 2-3 yrs of flying their
young and who is still contributing to my top kits.
Jay Starley had a pair he called the "produce pair" that he bred
from for several years. Lots (maybe 1/2) of their offspring made
it to stock at his and other lofts. I would say that they
definitely qualified as worthy of the kind of testing your
getting at.
To answer another of your questions "Proving a bird as a
good/great/fantastic roller is usually done in the air and in
the loft. One question asked is can they produce offspring like
themselves or better?" Yes, they can. I started with birds off
from good breeders B-kits. The extras they didnt want. I have
bred/built them into a good quality program. I am still using a
couple birds that came to me as average performers from top
pairs in solid families. They regularly breed me better
performers than themselves and in one instance, I have a 3rd
generation in stock now, so they are producing as good or better
breeders than themselves too.
Good thought stimulating questions. There may be no adequate
answers for these. If so I would guess it takes yrs and yrs to
prove them true. Good flying to you
Jon
#Post#: 11752--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding of the future
DIR By: KevinM
Date: October 7, 2012, 11:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Good post. Imagine if you could use 4-5 pair and make 20 bird
kit from each pair, fly em out and then make breeding decisions
then. How much further progress could be made? I would like to
think a lot could be gained.
#Post#: 11827--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding of the future
DIR By: windjammer loft
Date: October 17, 2012, 7:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Kevin..... if YOU would use "fosters" I guess their is NO
ceiling on HOW many youngsters a pr can produce... Also depends
on what your location is and the weather conditions during your
breeding season... I have never been able to get my fosters in
sink with my breeding pairs.... so I just get 3 rounds out of
each pr of breeders..
#Post#: 11830--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding of the future
DIR By: Ross Howard
Date: October 17, 2012, 8:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Paul not sure how you sinc your birds but I let fosters & donors
all get down on eggs then pull them all at once so they cycle
together .i start earl for 1st eggs.
#Post#: 11853--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding of the future
DIR By: windjammer loft
Date: October 19, 2012, 9:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Ross...from the looks of "how" things have been going for me in
the past. I have to take a serious look and re-organize my
management skills.
#Post#: 11854--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding of the future
DIR By: Mathieu
Date: October 19, 2012, 11:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
An enjoyable and informative read...Thanks contributors.
Regards
Mathieu
#Post#: 11872--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding of the future
DIR By: samir
Date: October 27, 2012, 11:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Almost a hundred years before DNA is connected to genetic
material, and its molecular structure is discovered, Gregor
Mandel has discovered basic laws of genetics. He was focusing
on particulate inheritance, going against previous approaches to
heredity that was focused on quantitative characters.
· Mendel’s first law is INDEPENDENT SEGRAGATION·
Mendel’s second law is INDEPENDENT ASSORTMENTNow instead of
going into further mambo-jumbo about recessive/dominant, gene
allocations and so on, let’s focus on these two laws and what do
they mean in practical sense.Imagine a bag of bingo balls as
representation of entire of an individual genetic material.
Imagine those balls are all same size same color with numbers on
them. Some numbers are same some different. An arrangement of
these numbers in particular order will form a code UNIQUE to
this individual.
Now if you take two smaller bags and split these balls into two
equal by number groups in each of this bags, this would
represent genetic material in GAMETS (egg or semen cells).
Chances are each of these bags will hold different content from
each other. Now if we put balls back to first bag and do
process over again, randomly split content into two again the
content of these two new small bags most likely will not be same
as it was firs time. This can be repeated over and over,
chances to get same content as first time are equal to chances
of winning lotto or bingo. It can be calculated based on number
of characters followed.
Well what it means to us, by law of segregation; chances that a
hen produces two eggs with exact same genetic material are slim,
very, very slim. Also chances to produce replica of the egg
they hatch from are also slim. 1:100, 1:1000, 1:10000000.
Depend again on number of characters you are interested in.
Same goes for semen cells.
Independent assortment is easy to imagine. From the previous
model where “small” bags are produced we know how diverse
content is depending on number of balls in. Now we take
randomly any two small bags and combine into a new big one with
goal to make a matching one to initial UNIQUE. To make it more
interesting and say in reality there are two pools of small bags
those are originated from two, unique but different, initial
bags of balls……………..
You do the math. This is what we deal with in our hobby. An
ideal is recognized and we trying to make a copy of it by
narrowing the pool to increase adds of matching as close as
possible to replica of ideal. We minimize external influence,
at least to avoid new mutations from further complicating our
math.
In the future people might do cloning, or genetic engineering to
produce or fabricate what they want. But I personally love and
enjoy unique individuality of each bird that comes.
This may be answer to, why mating best bird with best, does not
always give even better offspring. Or why mediocre birds are
sometime parents to great offspring. Or why bird that is
produced from brother/sister does not look 75% as grandpa.
Samir
#Post#: 11873--------------------------------------------------
Re: Breeding of the future
DIR By: Mathieu
Date: October 28, 2012, 11:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Great post
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 1