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#Post#: 11659--------------------------------------------------
Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: LittleJohn
Date: September 25, 2012, 10:40 am
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--- Quote ---
> Any idea that inbreeding can by itself be the cause of any
form of deterioration or degeneration is totally unjustified.
High flying and true rolling ability may certainly be stabilized
and improved by inbreeding if sufficient care is given to the
choice of Rollers used for breeding in each generation, and is
accompanied by sensible selection. If a weakness appears in
inbred stock, it is because the parents or other ancestors carry
the genetic factors responsible. Inbreeding may be said to be a
device by means of which all qualities, good and bad, which lie
latent or hidden in a strain may be brought to light. To accuse
inbreeding of creating faulty conditions of any kind is
ridiculous.
--- End Quote ---
William Pensom
That being said, what are your arguments either for or against
inbreeding rollers? I use inbreeding in my loft, but
selectively.
LittleJohn
#Post#: 11660--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: September 25, 2012, 11:40 am
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Here is the simple on what Pensom is saying and I agree with it:
It is not that inbreeding "causes" faults, only that inbreeding
brings out what is ALREADY there. Through proper selection these
can be eliminated. :D
#Post#: 11661--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: LittleJohn
Date: September 25, 2012, 12:25 pm
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I agree 100% Tony.
If you breed youngsters from a brother/sister pair, and you get
webbed feed for example....You are not getting webbed feet
because you inbred these youngsters...You are getting webbed
feet because it was in the gene makeup of the parents...for
example a recessive gene carried by both parents will often
times show in their offspring.
Careful selection of birds which do not show these traits and
continuing forward will eventually result in the elimination of
the undesireable traits.
My belief is that the parents can only throw....what their gene
makeup is. Once you have dialed that in to what you want in
your birds, then you can predetermine what the results will be
from your family of birds ...whether that is color, eyes, muffs,
depth....whatever.
Unfortunately most people wont spend the time to take on such a
lengthy task in order to achieve the desired result.
I am in the third generation of a family of birds that I have
been working with, and I am starting to see some of the results
of the breeding program I have been using. I have found that
most people who are against the system simply do not understand
how effective of a tool it can be to bring out the very best in
their birds...and most just dont care.
#Post#: 11662--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: Tony Chavarria
Date: September 25, 2012, 12:55 pm
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Yes, perhaps a lack of understanding of what inbreeding actually
is and how it functions and little patience to commit to the
process of developing a line based on the traits both good and
bad of the gene pool which is only understood through years of
working with a given inventory of rollers. :P
#Post#: 11663--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: LittleJohn
Date: September 26, 2012, 9:44 am
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it's the same methodology in any animal, but with pigeons the
turnaround is somewhat quicker than would be realized with dogs
or horses. But it still takes a lot of years
#Post#: 11664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: Mathieu
Date: September 26, 2012, 10:42 am
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Hi Guys, I am enjoying your comments and agree with you totaly.
Good birds will produce good youngsters. That is why it is
imperative that only the best birds must be mated even though
they are the same family i.e bother and sister.
#Post#: 11665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: raul carreiro
Date: September 26, 2012, 12:23 pm
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--- Quote from: Mathieu link ---
>
> Hi Guys, I am enjoying your comments and agree with you
totaly. Good birds will produce good youngsters. That is why it
is imperative that only the best birds must be mated even though
they are the same family i.e bother and sister.
>
--- End Quote ---
What percentile of good young birds will one get by just simply
Breeding good birds, or breeding best to best regardless of
their relationship? I would take an educated guess, and say the
the numbers are low! Were it that simple we would all have World
champion kits!! I do agree however that Inbreeding when used
correctly, and one continues to cull all unwanted traits,
Inbreeding is the best method that one can use to achieve such
a feat!
#Post#: 11666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: LittleJohn
Date: September 26, 2012, 12:37 pm
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Raul,
Thats what the discussion was about, was that it certainly
is not easy, and it does take a considerable amount of time.
This is why most disclaim its effectiveness and opt for the
easy road of breeding pedigrees or even "best to best" as you
call it. I'd like to understand your statement better in
reference to your ...educated guess.
I can tell you that you will never breed a champion by
inbreeding. However you can develop a family that has all of
the traits you want in your pigeons with the method.
The champions will be made by crossing lines.
That's already deeper than I wanted to get on the subject, but
just one of the facts of inbreeding.
Have a good one.
LittleJohn
#Post#: 11667--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: Mathieu
Date: September 26, 2012, 12:48 pm
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Hi Raul,
I would also make an educated guess and say that the percentage
of producing good birds from good parents is higher than
breeding bad birds and trying to produce an average kit :D .
However I agree with you it's not that simple, it takes years of
experience and lots of hard work producing a great kit of birds
#Post#: 11668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inbreeding Birmingham Rollers
DIR By: raul carreiro
Date: September 26, 2012, 2:45 pm
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LittleJohn,
In reference to your question pertaining to my "educated guess"
I am new to the breeding and flying of Birmingham rollers'
four years to be exact! I am not however new to the breeding and
keeping of pigeons, and various other animals ! I have been
involved with the breeding and showing of Norwich Croppers and
Type canaries for nearly 22 years. Although there may be a
difference between show birds and flying birds, the breeding
practices are the same! Nor am I naive or misinformed on the
methodologies and principles of breeding, be it Inbreeding, Line
breeding, out crossing etc!
Inbreeding has both a good and bad side, its use by the
indiscriminate breeder of any bird, dog, cat or cow, can and
does produce potential problems. Particularly by the continued
haphazard inbreeding used by indiscriminate breeders! As these
types of breeders limit and decrease their gene pool, the
potential for deleterious genes to become widespread
increases.
and the breed loses vigor.
On the opposite side of the coin, in the hands of the well
informed,a controlled amount of inbreeding can be used to fix
and infuse desirable traits such as body type, feathering
quality, fertility, growth, etc. I would not Include rolling,
style or depth as a trait that can be inbred or fixed as I
believe that their are too many variables involved,and as of
yet no one breeder has identified the gene or genes
responsible for a birds rolling ability. It is my opinion that
the breeding of consistently good rollers is more of a hit or
miss regardless of the breeding method used! Why do two champion
rollers when bred together, can and do produce non rollers,
roll downs? Yet two non rollers bred together, can and do
produce birds that roll!
I trust that you now have a better understanding as to my
"educated guess" I too could go deeper,but this is just one of
the facts of inbreeding!
To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters
begins to look like a nail.—Abraham Maslow
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