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#Post#: 540--------------------------------------------------
Knife fighting evaluation thread
By: Dutch Date: February 19, 2022, 12:38 pm
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Title.
#Post#: 541--------------------------------------------------
Paul vs Gurney (Dune 2021 trailer)
By: Dutch Date: February 19, 2022, 12:40 pm
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[img]
HTML https://imgix.gizmodo.com.au/content/uploads/sites/2/2020/09/10/nlqzj9lllidnda8cepbq.gif?auto=format&fit=fill&q=65&w=720&fm=gif[/img]
Because it's shield combat (only slow strikes go through a Dune
force shield) it's supposed to be different, and it is. There's
more feinting, the real attacks are slow, and you can afford to
take a hit because of the shield.
I asked a friend who makes knives and does some martial arts,
and he says it's pretty good. The moves look a lot like silat,
an Indonesian knife martial art where you block primarily by
striking at their arm. It's also like kali (also known as
escrima) a Philippine martial art based around stickfighting.
In kali, there are ten basic strikes, which you can learn about
here
HTML https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGmJnz5Dtl1VXJpsrfJfzjQ.
I've
watched the gif frame by frame. In the first fighting shot of
the gif, Gurney attacks with Strike 1, and Paul blocks with his
forearm. Gurney uses Strike 2, and Paul either parries or does a
Strike 1 with his right knife. Paul then replies with a Strike
2, throwing Gurney's arm aside.
In the next shot, Gurney is swinging downward in Strike 9.
Paul blocks with his left hand and throws Gurney off balance,
then drops down and winds up for a Strike 4 as Gurney comes down
with another Strike 2. Both strikes land, but are stopped by the
shields.
Gurney's footwork doesn't look great, but Paul's is good from
what I can see (it's the movement advantage that allows him to
make that knee strike). Really, I'd say that's great closing
skill. I've recreated that move in sparring with friends, and I
think that it would only work if you close, throw the enemy off
balance (like Paul does) and then dropped down to strike. That
aiming for the leg instead of the side is a bad idea is probably
not true, because your opponent is striking at you and will
expect you to stay high. So whether the move is a good idea
depends on the context, which the trailer doesn't show. Gurney
probably should've be ready for something like it, but since we
don't have the whole fight I can't say whether Paul made a
foolish rush or a brilliantly timed one.
The swords/knives they're using are called kindjals. Unlike the
book, they're straight-bladed and single-edged. It's similar to
the Japanese sword called the Dao
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_(Chinese_sword).
Here's some
dao sparring:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFfXFLYml6E
It's quite similar to Dune.
Overall, I'd say Dune seems very accurate thus far.
Rating: 8/10
#Post#: 542--------------------------------------------------
Full fight from Dune 2021
By: Dutch Date: February 19, 2022, 12:41 pm
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HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMCmlTkzlhM
(With the director's commentary.)
So we now have the whole fight, and it's glorious. It totally
showcases real-life martial arts, along with subtle differences
because of the shields.
Again, the fight uses a lot of kali/arnis/eskrima, and Gurney
also seems to be familiar with German messer. The first section
really showcases the style of Balintawak Eskrima (yes, I pasted
that name). Here's a grandmaster of that style in action:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nhT85HkX_E
In all kali, the off hand (hand without a weapon) is used to
block and deflect the attacks of the enemy. In Balintawak
Eskrima, this is dialed up to 11. The left hand is a flurry of
motion, being the primary defensive tool. The idea is the push
the enemy's arm aside as they strike so you can use your own
weapon.
Anyway, on to the breakdown!
Gurney is powerful, aggressive, and brutal. His footwork is
solid, planted and concrete. Gurney's feints (false strikes)
consist of power strikes, and his strategy consists of trying to
overwhelm and overpower Paul before landing slow hits designed
to penetrate the shield.
Paul is graceful and agile. His footwork uses a lot of
sidesteps, true to the foundations of kali.
Gurney and Paul are both using short swords like the Dao. When I
said in an earlier post that they were kindjals I was wrong.
Actually, Gurney's might be one.
The fight starts with some excellent close combat that's really
a treat to watch, with excellent flow, technique, and speed,
though it's a bit too clean and idealized. Gurney twirls his
sword and the two attack. Paul attacks with a thrust—Gurney
avoids and strikes the back of Paul's body shield. Gurney
attacks again. Paul blocks and counters. After several exchanges
Paul gets to the side of Gurney and strikes his trainer's knee
shield with the hilt of his own sword as Gurney lands a similar
hit to his head shield. Paul jumps back up and attempts to
throw Gurney off balance, but Gurney moves in too fast for that
and passes his sword through the shield, pressing it to Paul's
neck.
Then Gurney charges again. First off, Gurney attacks with strike
#10 (straight thrust at the chest). Paul sidesteps, but before
he can riposte, Gurney comes back with strike #4, a horizontal
swing from the left. Paul is surprised and barely manages to
block. Then Gurney twists his sword around Paul's in a
messer-like technique and disarms him with a quick movement
before sweeping at him with a slow strike #4. Paul voids and
leaps over the table before grabbing a couple of daggers from
the top.
Gurney swings down with a #1. Paul dodges and lands a hit on his
trainer's arm, which is stopped by the shield. Gurney recovers
with a #4 while drawing Paul's attention to his off hand, which
Paul lands a hit on. Paul dodges Gurney's strike before the
latter attacks with another #1. Paul blocks with his forearm and
appears to try a #7 strike, a high thrust on the right. Gurney
intercepts it with a #2, but Paul intercepts his counterattack
with another #2 with his left knife, shoving Gurney's arm aside.
However, he doesn't take advantage of the opening in time before
Gurney brings his arm back with a #4 and then uses a powerful
#10 to knock Paul down.
Paul switches grips. The advantage of the reverse grip is that
he can easily deflect enemy strikes with either hand. Gurney
closes and strikes with another #1. Paul deflects his arm with
his left hand (amazing technique there) and then rushes in to
land a hit on Gurney's knee, which looks to be just fast enough
to be stopped by the latter's shield.
Gurney falls back and Paul presses his attack. He lands a double
#5 strike with both hands, then brings his right hand back in
another #5 very quickly. These strikes are aimed at Gurney's
face and so they temporarily blind him with the shield flashes.
Gurney switches his sword to his left hand as Paul spins (a very
realistic spin), catches Gurney's strike with his right hand,
and trips his trainer up with a hook-type #3 behind the knee.
Gurney falls to the floor and Paul brings his knives to the
former's throat. Gurney says, "You'd have joined me in death,"
as Paul realizes that Gurney's sword is through the shield and
pointed at his heart.
Only problems: When Paul deflects Gurney's arm, it goes way too
far (as if Paul were superhumanly strong). Gurney doesn't do
much in the last few seconds, seeming to want to get hit—though
he does move a bit, it's not enough.
Overall, though, I'd say this is a masterpiece. The characters
are fast, skilled, not overly flashy, etc, even if some
movements are exaggerated. It also reflects the difference of
shield-combat. 8/10.
#Post#: 543--------------------------------------------------
Rogers vs Winter Soldier: Captain America 2
By: Dutch Date: February 19, 2022, 12:41 pm
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HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp6hhq8DdgU
HTML https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/bb/a5/c7bba5f1cfa3e3f8a2dd8175670c6f8e.gif
HTML https://mtv.mtvnimages.com/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/buckyarm-1429716265.gif
An expert in kali knife training liked this fight, though she
found some definite problems.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxudL917gkA
She points out that Steve/Cap is not deflecting the Winter
Soldier's strikes enough, instead just blocking. Also, the
grip-switching knife toss would be fine if they were at a longer
distance, but in close combat it's not a good idea, as it's too
flashy and takes too long.
In addition, some of the other movements are clearly exaggerated
and unrealistic.
Rating: 6/10 (my rating is different from hers because I think
the good understanding of force and power is a strong point)
#Post#: 544--------------------------------------------------
Paul vs Jamis (Dune 2021)
By: Dutch Date: February 19, 2022, 12:50 pm
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HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri1SfeewSiU
I don't have time for a full review right now, but I love this
fight. It's far from perfect, with some exaggeration in the
techniques and rather weird distance, but it's still one of the
best. Jamis is portrayed in a manner true to the
novel—aggressive, unpredictable, overconfident, and sloppy.
Paul's rather lackluster fighting and refusal to attack much
stems from his reluctance to fight and inexperience with actual
killing.
The Fremen fighting style is based on Rostami, an obscure
Persian self-defense school, but that doesn't make is
fundamentally different from all other fighting—all martial arts
based on the same weapon are bound to be similar.
Paul's repeated besting of Jamis looks great, though a bit
idealized.
Jamis's death results from his underestimation of Paul and his
poor understanding of distance. Paul was able to easily sidestep
and land the fatal hit. I don't really like how Jamis switches
hands behind his back, but then, he's desperate and furious.
I've done really dumb things in sparring because I was scared.
This fight deserves a 7.5 or 8.
#Post#: 545--------------------------------------------------
Bourne vs Treadstone assassin: Apartment fight (The Bourne Ident
ity)
By: Dutch Date: February 19, 2022, 1:08 pm
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HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFnmq5PPScA
This is one of my favorite fight scenes ever.
The kali expert above gave it a 9/10 in the category of
kali/eskrima techniques. I'm gonna give it an 8 overall, as some
of the moves are way exaggerated (the spin kick at 0:30) and the
assassin doesn't seem to understand distance. However, Bourne
seems very capable and really impresses me with his offense.
Bourne is not trying to kill his opponent—he wants to take him
alive. The assassin, on the other hand, definitely wants to kill
Bourne.
I love the improvisation here. A pen is a great weapon, even
against a small knife.
Note: A lot of people want to do martial arts because of how
awesome Bourne is. But they fail to understand—to be able to
protect yourself that well in actual combat, you need to have
experience in actual combat. Not even MMA, with it brutal
sparring, will give you that.
Also, if you kill someone in self-defense, you can go to
jail if the court decides you needlessly used deadly force. If
you think you're in danger, run. Bourne didn't have that option,
but you're not Bourne.
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