DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Renewable Revolution
HTML https://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Renewables
*****************************************************
#Post#: 9296--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 11:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=559.msg149736#msg149736
date=1521079261]
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149734#msg149734
date=1521078762]
Don't quote me but the 8kW version retail 14000 canadian. That
is the most expensive format though the 16 kw version close to
20000 canadian.
[/quote]
At those prices, I'll stick to a couple of Lead-Acid Deep Cycle
Marine Batts. ::)
RE
[/quote]
#Post#: 9297--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 12:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149742#msg149742
date=1521081723]
for the moment that is what we recommend as well. Its still in
the early adopter stage. They do have advantages due to lithiums
acceptance of higher current for charging and discharging. So
for an off grid scenario you can massively oversize the solar
array due to cheap solar panels and get it all in with a
relatively small battery bank. Lead's rate of charge/discharge
is more fixed so you would have to double the bank size to equal
the charge rate which lowers the cost difference. There are also
some problems in our area due to Lithium's poor cold charging
characteristics. I like them. I will like them more in 5
years...
[/quote]
#Post#: 9298--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 12:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=559.msg149743#msg149743
date=1521082488]
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149742#msg149742
date=1521081723]
for the moment that is what we recommend as well. Its still in
the early adopter stage. They do have advantages due to lithiums
acceptance of higher current for charging and discharging. So
for an off grid scenario you can massively oversize the solar
array due to cheap solar panels and get it all in with a
relatively small battery bank. Lead's rate of charge/discharge
is more fixed so you would have to double the bank size to equal
the charge rate which lowers the cost difference. There are also
some problems in our area due to Lithium's poor cold charging
characteristics. I like them. I will like them more in 5
years...
[/quote]
Bottom line here is I just don't see the need for so much
storage or power generation. You just need to keep a few diode
lights on and keep your laptop charged up and a fridge running.
How much power does that really take?
RE
[/quote]
#Post#: 9299--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 12:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=559.msg149751#msg149751
date=1521084288]
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149748#msg149748
date=1521083694]
[quote author=RE link=topic=559.msg149743#msg149743
date=1521082488]
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149742#msg149742
date=1521081723]
for the moment that is what we recommend as well. Its still in
the early adopter stage. They do have advantages due to lithiums
acceptance of higher current for charging and discharging. So
for an off grid scenario you can massively oversize the solar
array due to cheap solar panels and get it all in with a
relatively small battery bank. Lead's rate of charge/discharge
is more fixed so you would have to double the bank size to equal
the charge rate which lowers the cost difference. There are also
some problems in our area due to Lithium's poor cold charging
characteristics. I like them. I will like them more in 5
years...
[/quote]
Bottom line here is I just don't see the need for so much
storage or power generation. You just need to keep a few diode
lights on and keep your laptop charged up and a fridge running.
How much power does that really take?
RE
[/quote] Individually you are right but you rely on portions of
the public grid you are not factoring in. For now most people in
western world off grid homes or using between 2 and 30 kW Hrs of
power per day. Both of those are outliers average probably 6-12
kW Hr
All my own observations of course.
[/quote]
I average 140 kwh/month, for about 5/day. However, this is far
more than I really need, I could quite easily get by on half
that with no change in lifestyle at all. I could get under 1 if
I made a few small changes like doing outdoor refrigeration
through the winter, etc. WTF do I need 8kwh of storage for?
RE
[/quote]
#Post#: 9300--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 12:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=559.msg149753#msg149753
date=1521085394]
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149752#msg149752
date=1521084908]
Well, Anchorage averages 1.5 hours of usable sun in the winter.
Our problem is you get 2, 3, 4, 10 days of very little sun then
5 hours on one day. You try to size battery banks to store 2
days of usage while not destroying them. You can add extra
generator time or oversizing arrays but that is the general
rule. So for you: say you could make that 3kW per day we would
want to store 6kW Hr while not discharging a lead acid bank more
then 60-70 percent at most. For you 4 L16 6 volt 400 amp hour
batteries with a 2.4 kW array. About $1600 for the battery bank
good for 5-10 years depending on how you abuse it.
[/quote]
$1600 is more in budget, but really I don't need that much.
Beside SUN (or lack therof) we get a lot of WIND here in the
valley, it comes whistling down off the mountains at least 1/2
the days where I live in the Winter. Then in summer of course
you get much more sun for much longer periods of time. If I was
really trying to go off grid and not just stay prepped for
temporary outages, I think I could get away with 2kwh of
storage. I would trim my usage considerably also on days my
system wasn't generating power as well.
RE
[/quote]
#Post#: 9301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 12:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149755#msg149755
date=1521085996]
[quote author=RE link=topic=559.msg149753#msg149753
date=1521085394]
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149752#msg149752
date=1521084908]
Well, Anchorage averages 1.5 hours of usable sun in the winter.
Our problem is you get 2, 3, 4, 10 days of very little sun then
5 hours on one day. You try to size battery banks to store 2
days of usage while not destroying them. You can add extra
generator time or oversizing arrays but that is the general
rule. So for you: say you could make that 3kW per day we would
want to store 6kW Hr while not discharging a lead acid bank more
then 60-70 percent at most. For you 4 L16 6 volt 400 amp hour
batteries with a 2.4 kW array. About $1600 for the battery bank
good for 5-10 years depending on how you abuse it.
[/quote]
$1600 is more in budget, but really I don't need that much.
Beside SUN (or lack therof) we get a lot of WIND here in the
valley, it comes whistling down off the mountains at least 1/2
the days where I live in the Winter. Then in summer of course
you get much more sun for much longer periods of time. If I was
really trying to go off grid and not just stay prepped for
temporary outages, I think I could get away with 2kwh of
storage. I would trim my usage considerably also on days my
system wasn't generating power as well.
RE
[/quote] The smart human is always best for these things. Its a
non linear relationship between depth of discharge and life
cycle for batteries which is why we do larger banks.
Sleep time...
[/quote]
#Post#: 9302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 12:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Eddie link=topic=559.msg149783#msg149783
date=1521117848]
I've been following this discussion. I appreciate the input from
a pro. David, please comment on Nickle-Iron as a PV storage
choice.
And how big a bank do I need for my 4.8kW array with 5 hr sun? I
was thinking two strings might be better than one. 48V.
I am probably going to do a grid-tie for our house in the
canyon. I recently got a new roof (composition shingles). Any
advice on the best racking attachment choices to avoid leaks?
[/quote]
#Post#: 9303--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 12:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[img
width=140]
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-191017143841.jpeg[/img]<br
/>Some deliberately erroneous info on the Musk Australian batter
y
bank, that he SOLD them (he did NOT "give" them) has been posted
by (not so) closet fossil fueler Palloy. The 109 MW.h figure for
the battery bank quoted by Palloy is also erroneous.
[quote]At roughly five PowerPacks per MWh of energy generation,
South Australia's Tesla battery setup will comprise several
hundred PowerPack towers -- each containing 16 individual
battery pods that balance charge. The 129MWh of batteries to be
installed at Hornsdale is roughly equivalent to the capacity
installed into Tesla's new electric cars during five days of
Model S and Model X production at its plant in Fremont,
California.[/quote]
HTML https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/07/all-the-details-on-teslas-giant-australian-batteryt/
[quote]December 28, 2017 Less than a month after Tesla unveiled
a new backup power system in South Australia, the world’s
largest lithium-ion battery is already being put to the test.
And it appears to be far exceeding expectations: In the past
three weeks alone, the Hornsdale Power Reserve has smoothed out
at least two major energy outages, responding even more quickly
than the coal-fired backups that were supposed to provide
emergency power.
Tesla’s battery last week kicked in just 0.14 seconds after one
of Australia’s biggest plants, the Loy Yang facility in the
neighbouring state of Victoria, suffered a sudden, unexplained
drop in output, according to the International Business Times.
And the week before that, another failure at Loy Yang prompted
the Hornsdale battery to respond in as little as four seconds —
or less, according to some estimates — beating other plants to
the punch. State officials have called the response time “a
record,” according to local media.[/quote]
HTML http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/tesla-mega-battery-south-australia-outage-reaction-time-hornsdale-power-reserve-a8130986.html
I have warned Palloy several times about his penchant for taking
every opportunity to attack anything that endangers the use of
fossil fuels for energy.
He ignores all my warnings. I will not allow false information
to be disseminated here. Consequently, I have deleted it and
reposted it below with the portions of the Palloy post that are
false eliminated.
[quote author=Palloy2 link=topic=559.msg149745#msg149745
date=1521082551]
[quote author=RE link=topic=559.msg149736#msg149736
date=1521079261]
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149734#msg149734
date=1521078762]
Don't quote me but the 8kW version retail 14000 canadian. That
is the most expensive format though the 16 kw version close to
20000 canadian.
[/quote]
At those prices, I'll stick to a couple of Lead-Acid Deep Cycle
Marine Batts. ::)
RE
[/quote]
"each have strengths and weaknesses", indeed.
... how a battery developed for EV car use can also be used for
grid back-up... Elon Musk ... South Australia MW.h ... ...
batteries, ... ... batteries.
[/quote]
I am grateful to David B. for shedding accurate information on
battery technology, including the one Musk uses, instead of
trying to use a forum to attack Musk.
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149746#msg149746
date=1521083205]
[quote author=Palloy2 link=topic=559.msg149745#msg149745
date=1521082551]
[quote author=RE link=topic=559.msg149736#msg149736
date=1521079261]
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149734#msg149734
date=1521078762]
Don't quote me but the 8kW version retail 14000 canadian. That
is the most expensive format though the 16 kw version close to
20000 canadian.
[/quote]
At those prices, I'll stick to a couple of Lead-Acid Deep Cycle
Marine Batts. ::)
RE
[/quote]
"each have strengths and weaknesses", indeed.
It makes me wonder how a battery developed for EV car use can
also be used for grid back-up, which is the opposite of a mobile
situation, where Lead Iron Phosphate excels. Elon Musk gave
South Australia 109 MW.h of his batteries, as a loss-leader,
knowing they would have to come back in 8,000 cycles time and
buy some more unsuitable batteries.
[/quote]
We spitball this issue at work a lot. Lithium is great for fast
instantaneous storage the kind they installed in Australia. Its
also really good for peak shaving like they use it for in
California. I won't claim insight into Musk's motives but
building volume at a loss and keeping his companies in the news
cycle to maintain share price are certainly part of it. I like
lead carbon, flow batteries and even Aquion if they ever get
their power density up. Lithium for mobile applications is hard
to beat right now. [size=12pt]Then you have to consider that
when the cars are done with the batteries the batteries are
still good for several thousand cycles at a lesser
charge/discharge rate. Lots of startups in that area. [/size]
#Post#: 9304--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 1:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=David B. link=topic=559.msg149818#msg149818
date=1521135861]
[quote author=Eddie link=topic=559.msg149783#msg149783
date=1521117848]
I've been following this discussion. I appreciate the input from
a pro. David, please comment on Nickle-Iron as a PV storage
choice.
And how big a bank do I need for my 4.8kW array with 5 hr sun? I
was thinking two strings might be better than one. 48V.
I am probably going to do a grid-tie for our house in the
canyon. I recently got a new roof (composition shingles). Any
advice on the best racking attachment choices to avoid leaks?
[/quote] The nickel Iron is a great chemistry but it shines best
in charge discharge settings. For a grid connected system with
battery backup its overkill. With an eye on doom it is worth
considering though. at least twice the price of lead calcium
which is the most common for data centres, elevators, hospitals
etc all long life low usage batteries. Call me old fashion but I
would probably suggest two strings of the less costly chemistry
for redundancy. How much you store is always tricky. when we do
net metered with battery backup we size the bank smaller say one
day due to the fact the solar arrays for net metered systems are
so large. In your case the scenario would be a grid connected
inverter with the ability to sell back to the grid like the
Radian:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeS-wGtlpLc
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeS-wGtlpLc
from outback.
Schneider and sunny boy have their versions. It charges up your
battery first then feeds surplus to the grid. You then install a
critical loads panel for what matters in your house just like
for a backup generator. if power goes out you use the daytime
hours to supplement you battery capacity by running everything
that uses a lot of power during the day since the battery bank
will be topped up within hours and the rest wasted. In your
climate you might need to have smaller split air conditioners
that can be run on solar you would run them full out while the
sun is up and coast at night. Whole house units are real hogs on
start up. The nice thing is even if you can't do grid tie you
can grid zero with the same setup which uses the grid to back
up but feeds nothing back to it. That scenario is for when your
utility is being difficult; utility push back to solar is real
and growing. For mounts I like the flat plates with mastic and a
drip cover. Usually you screw into a rafter and seal which can
get messy if you miss but the flat plates allow you to go on the
sheathing directly. We use this one here:
HTML http://hespv.ca/fr-talon
HTML http://hespv.ca/fr-talon
but most suppliers have something
similar.
[/quote]
#Post#: 9305--------------------------------------------------
Re: Batteries
By: AGelbert Date: March 15, 2018, 1:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Eddie link=topic=559.msg149821#msg149821
date=1521136414]
Oops, dumb question. I didn't get it the way I wanted. The
battery question on strings was for my off-grid set-up at the
farm. I know you need to know the power usage to figure out how
big a bank, but I was just hoping for an off-the-cuff idea about
what would be typical for my 4800 watts of panel I have waiting
to be installed. Just a ballpark.
I probably won't battery back up the house.
[/quote]
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page