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#Post#: 3776--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: guest17 Date: September 14, 2015, 11:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Reply to Agelbert:
Regarding DDT:
1. The environmental harm of something must be weighed against
benefits or desirable effects. In the case of DDT, at the time
it was introduced there were almost no effective ways of
preventing malaria. DDT was highly effective in some contexts;
e.g., wikipedia: "For example, in Sri Lanka, the [DDT] program
reduced [malaria] cases from about one million per year before
spraying to just 18 in 1963." In other words, DDT essentially
eradicated malaria in Sri Lanka. Is that worth something? Yes,
of course it is. It is not worth environmental devastation. But
did DDT devastate the environment? No, it did not. Further,
other and better ways of preventing malaria came online since
that time, and DDT is no longer needed. For all its drawbacks,
which are considerable, it is a good thing that DDT is now
generally banned.
2. Can you provide evidence that DDT caused the extinction of
thousands of species? I cannot find reference to this in
standard reference material. The eggshell-thinning effect is
mentioned, but it seems that different bird species have
different sensitivity to this effect. No extinctions were
mentioned.
#Post#: 3777--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: AGelbert Date: September 15, 2015, 12:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Alan said, [quote]The environmental harm of something must be
weighed against benefits or desirable effects.[/quote]
By WHO, Alan? By WHO? Answer the QUESTION. Your dancing is going
to STOP right now.
ONLY scientists can answer those questions because politicians
ARE NOT OBJECTIVE.
DEFINE "desirable effects"!
Are you saying the environmental laws passed because of the
influence of the book titled, "Silent Spring" WERE NOT
justified?
You know EXACTLY where I am going with this. And you DO NOT want
to accept the premise that serious warnings of potential
extinction by the scientific community are logical and
reasonable. So, you begin to hem and haw about the "evidence" of
DDT. It was mostly BANNED, pal. So, OBVIOUSLY, we don't know
what would have happened if they hadn't banned it. What a
breathtakingly irrelevant question!
And what about the increased environmental awareness that book
caused. Are you going claim that was an "overreaction"?
You KNOW that if you accept that dire warnings based on science
AND the precautionary principle (that does NOT require a lot of
dead things proof to be justified, by the way) have a salutary
effect in getting society to ACT to improve the environment,
then you cannot mock warnings of N.T.H.E. on our present
trajectory.
So you want to grasp at a few "DDT ain't that bad" straws. Look
it up, pal. School is out on what DDT does. I will not descend
into minutiae and hairsplitting. If you think the book "Silent
Spring" was "Exaggerating Extreme Outcomes" and therefore a
"mistake", go away, NOW.
I just argued the false equivalence you made to Ashvin. It's a
propaganda technique. You used it on Ashvin. He bought it. I
don't.
[quote author=agelbert link=topic=5557.msg85361#msg85361
date=1442290164]
I said to Ashvin ,[quote] Your assertion that a tiny group can
"overreact" to a tsunami of propaganda by TPTB to keep people
asleep is not a logical statement; it's ridiculous. But it is
based on your view that there IS NO massive propaganda effort to
put people to sleep (SEE: Endowment bias or Confirmation bias).
[/quote]
Ashvin said, [quote]No, I do believe there is a massive
propaganda effort to keep people ignorant, materialistic and
apathetic. Now your tone is dismissive.
I liked the way Alan put it - the Doom overreactions and the
propaganda spewing are two sides of a counterfeit coin. Neither
one reflect reality and are counter-productive to real progress.
[/quote]
That is a contradictory group of statements. I am not being
dismissive. I am merely stating the fact that you firmly believe
my firm view of a high probability of N.T.H.E. is illogical and
unreasonable, even though you haven't heard all the evidence.
You accuse me of exaggerating extreme outcomes with insufficient
evidence to claim a firm position.
Yet you FIRMLY refuse to take the possibility seriously without
evidence. The precautionary principle of science, which you
claim to agree with, does not require that level of FIRM proof
(that you are demanding is needed) to justify drastic, rather
than incremental measures. Do you understand that?
But let us say you have a point and I am "overreacting". The
precautionary principle of science DICTATES that the burning of
fossil fuels be stopped, like, YESTERDAY. All the evidence is
not in. It's an extrapolation, like the decision to pass all
those laws made after "Silent Spring" was published.
The laws were a good try. They haven't worked enough. But
corporate TOES were stepped on to get those laws passed. The
corporations learned the wrong lesson from those laws that cost
them some profits.
That's why people like the Koch brothers and MKing do what they
do. They have an agenda and they have a LOT of financial
backing. Cui bono from branding warnings about N.T.H.E. as
hyperbole and sky is falling bull****, HUH? WHO would lose a lot
of money if most people listened to Doomer Warnings about
N.T.H.E.? Propaganda works. That 's why they finance a tsunami
of it. :evil4:
The statement by Alan about two sides of a counterfeit coin is a
false equivalence. You agree that there is a massive propaganda
effort to keep people ignorant, materialistic and apathetic.
Then you calmly state that a tiny group of awake people,
outraged by the environmental degradation unprecedented in human
history, evidenced by extinction rates (that are also
unprecedented and accelerating, NOT becoming less frequent) are
"overreacting"?
What does your coin look like, a cone with a tiny flat point
0.00001% of the size of the base? THAT's a "coin"?
No, that is a false equivalence.
[center][img width=640
height=380]
HTML http://image.architonic.com/img_pro2-2/106/0301/cone-ceiling_sq.jpg[/img][/center]
[center]Alan's counterfeit coin.
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp
[/center]
[/quote]
The "counterfeit coin" is part of the agnotology MO of the
defenders of the status quo. They also make frequent use of the
null hypothesis (no harm done ;)) to defend polluting practices
as a cost benefit exercise. I smell you are trying to do that.
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp
The fossil fuel industry learned it from the tobacco industry.
The "there is no scientific evidence of harm" is part and parcel
of the null hypothesis mendacity.
You seem to know too well how that propaganda pitch works. I do
too. Here's just one of six posts I made on that malicious, but
clever, MO.
[quote]This is one of six posts I will make over the next
several days on Agnotology as excerpted from the excellent book
on this topic that I have been perusing. The purpose is to
educate you on how TPTB game us. Feel free to pass these posts
on to any naïve friends or family.
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/snapoutofit.gif
People who don't
like the mushroom treatment need to know how little access to
historical truth and scientifically accurate information we
actually have in this country. 8)
[img width=640
height=940]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-180315185603.png[/img]
IOW, for centuries, TPTB have had a HABIT of lying both
actively and PASSIVELY (keeping information from you!). This has
corrupted our culture and impeded scientific progress. It's
getting WORSE, not better.
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp
[center][img width=320
height=380]
HTML http://josephnewton.com/images/sized/images/work/Aug6o9_Savage_Mislead_LG-440x501.jpg[/img][/center]
Agnotology: Part five of six parts
[img width=640
height=880]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-180315185859.png[/img]
[/quote]
NOTE that YOU and Ashvin make accusations that people who
"overreact" prevent progress. I know who REALLY is trying to
prevent progress. I think you are preventing progress by your
firm belief that drastic measures are not required. I think the
fossil fuel, pharmaceutical and chemical profit over planet
polluters agree with you.
You still haven't said ZIP about the extinctions. I presented
extinctions as evidence of the high probability of N.T.H.E. Your
"extinctions are bad" is a non answer. Don't play stupid with
me. I'll make it clearer below.
Your posts on China did not outline the environmental pluses
and minuses. So, you have nothing new. I'll move on to the
environment in general later.
Is "extinctions are bad - so what?" part of your "cost benefit"
exercise too? What a practical fellow. A little biosphere
diversity loss is nothing to get too excited about, right?
After all, the corporate profits are still rolling in, right?
It's all about GDP, right?
No, it isn't. It's ONLY about life and death.
SNIPPET:
[quote]THE EXTINCTION CRISIS
It’s frightening but true: Our planet is now in the midst of its
sixth mass extinction of plants and animals — the sixth wave of
extinctions in the past half-billion years. We’re currently
experiencing the worst spate of species die-offs since the loss
of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago.
Although extinction is a natural phenomenon, it occurs at a
natural “background” rate of about one to five species per year.
Scientists estimate we’re now losing species at 1,000 to 10,000
times the background rate, with literally dozens going extinct
every day [1]. It could be a scary future indeed, with as many
as 30 to 50 percent of all species possibly heading toward
extinction by mid-century [2].
[/quote]
HTML http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/biodiversity/elements_of_biodiversity/extinction_crisis/
Yeah, right Alan, I'm just "overreacting" here and you are being
"rational".
HTML http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif
#Post#: 3778--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: guest32 Date: September 15, 2015, 1:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Can you provide evidence that DDT caused the extinction
of thousands of species?[/quote] - by Alan2*
In a short period of time DDT concentrated enough to thin the
eggshells of predator species. Had DDT exposure continued the
species affected would have walked down the food chain to
omnivorous species. It was stopped but had it wiped out
predator species the natural food chain would have been severely
disrupted. That tens of thousands or more species would have
been affected and made extinct is certain. An ecology student
could explain better.
What I am telling you is the logical deduction of things I have
read about what DDT was doing to eggshells and I know enough
biology to know what an ecology student understands without the
detail he or she knows. DDT concentrates like mercury does now.
Wild mercury that was sequestered when the great coal beds were
formed in the Carboniferous Period 359.2 to 299 million years
ago is being incessantly released and absorbed into the
biosphere every day.
HTML http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/carboniferous/images/carbforest-etching.jpg
DDT did not cause the extinction of thousands of species because
it was legislated out of existence. Had that not happened
collapse of the biosphere could be doing a Full Monty right now.
Millions of species could be going out. DDT exposure is a well
understood problem that was solved. Fortunately.
DDT was well understood scientifically and it is a tragedy that
science is not respected as it once was when environmental
protection was first mandated.
#Post#: 3780--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: AGelbert Date: September 15, 2015, 1:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
K-Dog,
Well said.
Alan,
Here's the big picture of what we must do NOW. I maintain that
you refuse to see it. I use some humor but this is a matter of
life and death, even if you refuse to acknowledge that.
To be read while listening to the "Mission Impossible" theme
song: If you choose this misson, you will be in deep doo doo
with TPTB. Your life will be in jeopardy and you will never have
a job with the fossil fuel Forks. You will lose friends, get
defamed, mocked, labeled a whacko and be accused of bogarting
threads.
We will deny we gave you this mission. 8) You will either save
humanity from itself or die trying.
Push the red button to signal you are accepting this mission and
have memorized the program below. The digital recording software
and hardware storing the data will be magnetically wiped (We
don't use tape recorders to give you mission data any longer.
Besides, burning stuff is stupid. ;D ).
Good luck and Go GET EM'!
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/maniac.gif
That pyramid below is a simplification but it gives you an idea
how VITAL the PRODUCERS (the base of the trophic pyramid) are to
our existence.
[img width=640
height=480]
HTML http://web2.utc.edu/~fbp972/educ575/wq04MichaelKavur/image002.jpg[/img]
The MASSIVE amount of energy stored in the base from captured
sunlight is necessary because energy is LOST as the secondary
and tertiary trophic levels EAT the life forms below them.
The BASE does NOT have to be WIPED OUT for Homo SAPS to be
TOAST. It MUST be GIGANTIC in order to provide life for the
subsequent trophic levels. The INSTANT that BASE CANNOT be
several times LARGER in biomass because of what WE are doing to
the environment, we, along with lots of other non-producers high
up on the pyramid, are on the path to extinction. We ARE THERE.
This is not hard.
1) Set the example of a Frugality is Freedom Minimalist Mindset
lifestyle. BUT THAT IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT! The hippies did that
and made the MISTAKE of dropping out. They were supposed to use
that very same psychology the propagandists for dirty energy
used to turn the masses into piggies. That TOOL is to be found
in Maslow's hierarchy. IT is called PEER GROUP ACCEPTANCE. That
is why TPTB demonized the hippies. That STRIPPED THEM of their
ability to exert PEER PRESSURE on "respectable citizens". The
rest is history. If THAT history is repeated and pro-renewable
energy minimalist mindset people are demonized by TPTB, Homo SAP
is history! Now to step 2.
2 Explain the OBVIOUS to the propagandized chumps.
3. Use peer pressure to cajole, coax, mock, lambast, accuse of
foot dragging and lack of CFS, suicidal tendencies, being dumb
as a post (and so on - you get the idea) fellow Homo SAPS 24/7.
Unless ET and the USAF have a press conference (After all the
big oil CEO's commit suicide
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp<br
/>) announcing zero point free energy appliances, flying machine
s
and lunch will now be available to every Homo SAP on the planet
within a year or so, there is no alternative to a low carbon
economy, PERIOD.
The PLAN, if you can call it that, is to RESPECT and CARE FOR
THE TROPHIC PYRAMID, especially the BASE. And give HELL to
everyone that won't do that!
This is not hard.
[img width=640
height=380]
HTML http://greatneck.k12.ny.us/gnps/shs/dept/science/krauz/marino_bio_notes/Ecology_files/image006.gif[/img]
Pictorial lesson plan for informing the uninformed: The
"logical" choices presented by the profit over planet
evolutionary dead enders to the propagandized chumps:
[img width=640
height=420]
HTML http://ecology.iww.org/images/SMcMillan1.jpg[/img]
Short cognitive time horizons are not conducive to Homo SAP
species perpetuation. 8)
[center][img width=320
height=300]
HTML http://www.psdgraphics.com/file/3d-red-button.jpg[/img][/center]
#Post#: 3781--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: guest32 Date: September 15, 2015, 10:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, the trophic pyramid is what I was getting at but I did not
know what to call it.
Your statement:
"That is why TPTB demonized the hippies. That STRIPPED THEM of
their ability to exert PEER PRESSURE on "respectable citizens".
The rest is history.
Your statement is interesting and the cartoon with the
businessman makes the connection well. TPTB have always had it
out for anyone who would threaten their exploitation and self
enrichment and have even developed their mental illness into a
philosophy so they can self-delude themselves into believing
their psychopathic way of life is 'right'. Your insight
concerning hippies suggests that the concentration of American
media into the hands of a small number of super rich men was
inevitable. TPTB as a collective of super rich men functions
much as a living organism does in protecting itself. Any other
way of life but theirs is perceived by them as an infection and
threat. With their massive resources they have now totally
dominated the mainstream discussion to maintain their supremacy.
The immune system of the TPTB organism is strong.
There need not have been any recognizable conspiracy to take out
the hippies though there were no doubt many TPTB 'sleeper cell'
equivalents openly doing exactly that. Rather the majority of
demonization took place much like racism operates in a culture.
People have social needs to group together and without
enlightenment there is a natural tendency to demonize outsiders.
A pathetic example of this is a dim witted lower class white
man who imagines himself to be a Republican. How does this
happen? Simply by making the poor man think he is a member of
the privileged class without extending the benefits of being
privileged. I said white man but that is not an absolute
requirement. It is simply easier to 'put the con' on someone
who already looks like TPTB and thus easier for me to explain.
Once done a poor deluded and fully propagandized sap can even be
persuaded to 'die for his country', so strong is the social
instinct of man. Humans are more social than dogs, they are the
most social beings on the planet.
Unless we see that we are all in this together long term
survival of the human race is going to be impossible. TPTB
exploited the natural tendency of human nature to form groups
and exclude others through massive amounts of propaganda all in
order to preserve their agenda. They have even paid people to
troll the internet to maintain their position with tax money.
I appreciate your insight regarding the demonization of hippies.
[img]
HTML https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRjai3aaAFQogk706V1L5GfFVZv7lTTRzWP9d9Jp1rUA74B4GYYw[/img]
An example of exploitation? You decide.
#Post#: 3782--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: guest17 Date: September 15, 2015, 12:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote][size=10pt]Alan said "The environmental harm of something
must be weighed against benefits or desirable effects."
By WHO, Alan? By WHO? Answer the QUESTION.
[/quote]
Society.
[quote][size=10pt]Your dancing is going to STOP right now.
[/quote]
What dancing? I've responded in detail to virtually every single
sentence you have written, as you can see from my posts above. I
note, meanwhile, that you are not responding to me; ignoring
whole posts.
[quote][size=10pt]ONLY scientists can answer those questions
because politicians ARE NOT OBJECTIVE.
[/quote]
I agree that the input of scientists is very important. They
should have a very promininent place in policy issues. I am not
satisfied with their present role. Scientists are not objective,
either, but they come a lot closer than politicians.
[quote][size=10pt]DEFINE "desirable effects"!
[/quote]
I made a start in my post about DDT. One million malaria cases
PER YEAR in Sri Lanka, prevented by DDT. Would you call that a
desirable effect?
[quote][size=10pt]Are you saying the environmental laws passed
because of the influence of the book titled, "Silent Spring"
WERE NOT justified?
[/quote]
I don't know. They probably WERE justified (my gut talking). But
I have not studied the specifics, so cannot say with confidence.
[quote][size=10pt]You know EXACTLY where I am going with this.
And you DO NOT want to accept the premise that serious warnings
of potential extinction by the scientific community are logical
and reasonable.
[/quote]
By who in the scientific community? McPherson? His "work" (if
you want to call it that) has been deconstructed and is taken
seriously by only very few. It is possible that he is right, but
it seems to be a very small likelihood.
[quote][size=10pt]So, you begin to hem and haw about the
"evidence" of DDT. It was mostly BANNED, pal. So, OBVIOUSLY, we
don't know what would have happened if they hadn't banned it.
What a breathtakingly irrelevant question!
[/quote]
Actually, although it was banned, there was an "escape clause"
in the ban such that under certain conditions it could be used.
I note that it is now being used again in Africa:
[quote][size=11pt]
HTML http://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/141150-african-countries-adopt-controversial-deadly-chemical-ddt-for-malaria-treatment.html
African countries adopt controversial deadly chemical, DDT, for
malaria treatment
July 17, 2013
snip
Nigeria’s Minister of Health, Prof. Onyebuchi Chukwu, during
the Abuja meeting, emphasized that the World Health Organization
has cleared use of DDT in countries where mosquitoes are
resistant to other insecticide, noting that the manner of usage
is what matters.
“Some countries are using them. In the health sector, it’s to
be used indoors, not outdoors. It is the Agricultural sector
that doesn’t need DDT. We are not here for rhetorics but to seek
the way forward and the summit and African Union is primarily
for that purpose,” he stated.
Also, the South African representative reiterated that it is
important for all African leaders to eliminate malaria in
Africa, thus, queried why DDT comes under attack annually
whenever it is raised as a means of eradicating malaria.
“If we stop using it, we are sentencing our people to death.
Every other continent used DDT to eradicate malaria, so why is
our turn different in Africa?”
He said that within five years, South African had a 600 per
cent increase in malaria rate from 1996 when the country stopped
using DDT.
“We had no choice but revert to it. DDT must remain here until
a more effective chemical is discovered. We want to emphasize
that it must not be removed from our agreed agenda on how to
eradicate malaria in Africa,” he said.
[/quote]
[quote][size=10pt] And what about the increased environmental
awareness that book caused. Are you going claim that was an
"overreaction"?
[/quote]
Some of it was. Some of it wasn't. It is a complex world we live
in. There are reactions to things, and there are overreactions
to things. Sometimes you don't know whether or not something is
an overreaction until some years down the line (hence your
embrace of the precautionary principle -- about which there is
much to admire).
[quote][size=10pt] So you want to grasp at a few "DDT ain't that
bad" straws. Look it up, pal.
[/quote]
I have, to some extent. DDT is both good and bad, like most
things. I would love it if the good that DDT does were being
done by something else (non-toxic and benign), so we could cease
production and use of DDT forever. That would be a very good
thing. But meanwhile, here we are. See above news item on DDT in
Africa. Do you have a suggestion for Nigeria’s Minister of
Health, Prof. Onyebuchi Chukwu? What would you suggest that he
do? What would YOU do in his situation? You have many thousands
of people dying of a disease that would be prevented by DDT. But
you know that DDT is in other ways a very bad thing. What would
you do? Seriously. Think about it. There is no easy answer.
[quote][size=10pt] School is out on what DDT does. I will not
descend into minutiae and hairsplitting. If you think the book
"Silent Spring" was "Exaggerating Extreme Outcomes" and
therefore a "mistake", go away, NOW.
[/quote]
Thanks for the invitation. It looks like I'm going to have to do
that, for several reasons:
1. First, your tone, your hot-headedness and borderline
irrationality, are starting to get to me. I've been patient,
carefully and calmly answering virtually every single thing
you've written -- but without commensurate emotionality,
accusations and so forth. And yet, you still cannot seem to
settle down. You cannot seem to respond rationally to what I
write. Your behavior has been shrill, accusatory,
short-tempered, rude and unreasonable. I am not offended by
this, but I am disappointed. Whatever. I have no big investment
in a particular outcome. I was hoping to come here and have a
rational discussion, but it looks like that is not in the cards.
It is OK. I am OK with reality. It is what it is.
2. Second, I have an extremely busy time coming up the next
three weeks. Trip out of town, and employment-related stuff. So
much stuff that I cancelled my gym membership for a month last
night! (since I will not have time to use it). For me, that is
huge, because the gym is one of my main links to health and
sanity. I look forward to getting back to the gym, mid-oct, but
meanwhile I'm just too busy. And that includes too busy to write
long, thoughtful, detailed replies here. The most I could do
would be to stop in every few days and read, maybe post a few
lines, something like that.
3. Third, I see that k-dog is in attendance. I came here to get
away from people like k-dog, who I do not see as having anything
useful to contribute, judging from past behavior.
4. Fourth, it seems that Ashvin is not actively following and
responding on this thread, except for one 2-line post. That's
important, because Ashvin is -- in my view -- one of the most
intelligent and rational folks in this whole crowd. Without him,
it feels like the total weight is on me. And given my upcoming
life stuff (#2, above), that is way too much of a burden for me.
Even if the #2 stuff were not happening, it would be too much
for me, because I have a full life and many interests and
activities. I cannot justify spending 10 or 15 or more hours per
week, ongoing for weeks, engaged in conversation with what I
PERCEIVE (maybe wrongly) to be a hotheaded,
borderline-hysterical, borderline-irrational guy (see #1, above)
(or guyS -- plural -- if the rest of the DD madhouse starts
following us over here).
I trust that that explains my situation fully.
................
Good luck, Agelbert. I believe that you are a good and sincere
man, your concern for humanity is heartfelt and real, and your
work on renewable energy and related matters is admirable.
#Post#: 3783--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: guest17 Date: September 15, 2015, 12:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
PS:
The Dirty F.u.c.k.ing Hippies Were Right
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKEZoY-TMG4
:)
#Post#: 3784--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: guest17 Date: September 15, 2015, 12:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
PSS: Agelbert wrote:
[quote][size=11pt] Set the example of a Frugality is Freedom
Minimalist Mindset lifestyle. BUT THAT IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT!
The hippies did that and made the MISTAKE of dropping out. They
were supposed to use that very same psychology the propagandists
for dirty energy used to turn the masses into piggies. That TOOL
is to be found in Maslow's hierarchy. IT is called PEER GROUP
ACCEPTANCE. That is why TPTB demonized the hippies. That
STRIPPED THEM of their ability to exert PEER PRESSURE on
"respectable citizens". The rest is history.
[/quote]
Very good point! You make a number of very good points, amidst
the noise and hand-waving.
#Post#: 3785--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: AGelbert Date: September 15, 2015, 1:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Alan, you just provided a slew of non answers. You used
"doubt is our product" to obliquely defend incremental measures.
But you feel so sure that DDT is saving millions of lives
because you read about it. But what about the lives that it
kills? When you read about DDT saving millions, you agree
heartily. When you read about all the Anti-DDT legislation that
saved even more millions, you claim it is doubtful and we are a
"complex" society.
Sorry, that is not logical. The claim that DDT saves millions of
lives in Africa is scientifically based speculation. The only
way they could prove that is by having a control group in the
same area in Africa not given having DDT sprayed crops while
another group does. The past without DDT is not firm proof. The
same applies to the claim that banning DDT saved millions. It's
part of the precautionary principle that you do not want to deal
with.
And it isn't just McPherson uttering dire warnings, pal. The
acceleration in extinctions is not in doubt. Extinction is the
topic here, isn't it? Humans are part of the biosphere. Humans
need the biosphere to live. Humans are killing part of the
biosphere. This is not hard. The word "precautionary" in the
precautionary principle is there for a reason. and you have
certainly NOT answered my points.
What part of the following do you find doubtful?
[quote]THE EXTINCTION CRISIS
It’s frightening but true: Our planet is now in the midst of its
sixth mass extinction of plants and animals — the sixth wave of
extinctions in the past half-billion years. We’re currently
experiencing the worst spate of species die-offs since the loss
of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago.
Although extinction is a natural phenomenon, it occurs at a
natural “background” rate of about one to five species per year.
Scientists estimate we’re now losing species at 1,000 to 10,000
times the background rate, with literally dozens going extinct
every day [1]. It could be a scary future indeed, with as many
as 30 to 50 percent of all species possibly heading toward
extinction by mid-century [2].[/quote]
Your "Society" answer for who does the cost benefit analysis is
fascinating in it's total dodge of the egregious gaming of
government action by polluting corporations. You can agree that
butterfly flapping can cause deleterious results but you can't
see how the profit over planet polluters can bring about human
extinction. That is simply not reasonable on your part. That is
willful denial.
Of course I can recommend exactly what course of action for
Africa and everybody else out there to take that excludes DDT
and all other chemical neurotoxins. But if the proposal is not
couched in the form of a real, not hyperbole based, existential
threat, you KNOW governments won't act! See below:
This is what we have to do WORLDWIDE. If we don't, we die.
The bottom line is that humans, although we are tasked as self
aware beings with being stewards of those life forms who are
not, are a function of the biosphere, just as all the other life
forms are.
We have NOT "risen above" the other life forms with our
polluting example. The reverse is true. Our science CANNOT
replace life forms that go extinct. We can't even make a
paramecium! We are STUCK when a large enough percentage of the
biosphere we MUST have to survive dies off. And THAT is ALREADY
BAKED IN, according to Hansen and thousands of other serious
scientists.
We have NOT earned the right to do anything on this biosphere
except to obey the rules of planetary biochemistry that our
scientists have discovered. We don't do that and we die, period.
So we can sit here and hem and haw about whether this or that
system is "doable", "practical" or "too utopian" while we are
oh, so cautious in not wanting to tinker with all those "Great
traditions" and "individuality" and "freedom" that gave us our
present Dystopia. Good luck with that.
I propose that we go from a defunct "carrying Capacity" meme to
a "Caring Capacity" meme.
This world view modification is life promoting, instead of death
rewarding.
First, we would need to adopt Hansen's "Golden Opportunity" (tax
and dividend) on fossil fuels along with the elimination of any
and all subsidies and tax deductions for exploration for fossil
fuels.
Second, codifying into international law fines and/or
imprisonment for biosphere harming activities (e.g. fossil fuel
exploration and non-bioremidiated mining) must occur across the
board in order to ensure compliance to the Caring Capacity meme.
Third, we adopt the product of a Caring Capacity concept called
a modified Borsadi Constant. The modification consists of
Biosphere math applied to the basket of commodities Borsadi
proposed. The modified Borsadi Constant must be the ONLY LEGAL
TENDER in order to ensure compliance to the Caring Capacity
meme. Of course, the international community could expand that
basket to include other, less known, but important commodities
vital to biosphere restoration.
This requires a planetary ecology inventory of the biosphere by
objective scientists.
An inventory of the biosphere must be RADICALLY different than
those now made by the CIA and all the other profit over planet
exploiters that operate on the carrying capacity meme (i.e.
ANYTHING we get from the ground that harms the biosphere MORE
than nurtures it MUST be considered too expensive to extract,
period).
For those that will wail and moan about how we need fossil fuel
this and fossil fuel that (pesticides, fertilizers, plastics,
etc.) in order to avoid having to cull the human population, I
present to you the example of China BEFORE the industrial
revolution.
For over 1,000 YEARS they had such a perfectly balanced use of
human feces for fertilizing crops, that they obtained a
population density FAR above anything any other country in the
world has reached as of this date. And they did that WITHOUT
warring on other countries (yeah they had internal conflict but
nobody's perfect! ) and WITHOUT CAPITALISM several centuries
before the industrial revolution.
With the knowledge we now possess, ALL the products we need to
thrive can be obtained IN HARMONY with the biosphere. Any
population pressure we experience can be solved by GROWING the
biosphere onto arid, desolate portions of the globe. There are a
LOT of those.
When the limit to THAT is reached within a century or so, we can
terraform Mars to give us another 1000 years of growing elbow
room. It's a BIG universe out there! The reason more people
don't see this is that they are brainwashed to think SCARCITY,
SCARCITY and SCARCITY equals VALUE. That's the exploitive,
profit over planet mindfork we have been visited with for the
benefit of the Gordon Gecko IDIOTS.
　
Here's the CARING CAPACITY CURRENCY part of the proposal:
Present Dystopia:
[img width=640
height=380]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-170415130136.png[/img]
The "currency" of Dystopia:
[img width=640
height=380]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-170415131118.png[/img]
The BorsodI Constant aka "the Exeter experiment "InFLatIon Free
Currency (approximately 1971-1974)
United States Constitution forbids the counterfeiting of this
nation’s currency, however, it in no way limits the circulation
of a completely alternative medium of exchange...
3 09 Ralph Borsodi Constant Currency
HTML http://www.scribd.com/doc/13266703/3-09-Ralph-Borsodi-Constant-Currency#
What MUST we do to have a type of FUNCTIONAL society based on
human CARING CAPACITY instead of the exploited biosphere's
"carrying capacity"?
We must adopt a currency that reflects REAL VALUE in the
biosphere. The use of this currency must nurture LIFE, not
reward coercion, greed, war and death.
Ralph Borsodi came up with a local currency called the
"CONSTANT".
I like it. With some fine tuning, it would fit the bill for a
Green Libertarian Socialist currency that would meet the Caring
Capacity requirement to nurture LIFE, not reward coercion,
greed, war and death.
SNIPPET:
The first Constants were sold on June 21st 1972. Over a period
of about three years, Borsodi presented his ideas to many people
who deposited approximately $100,000 in his bank experiment
called Arbitrage International and the funds were used to buy
the basket of 30 basic commodities on the world market.
(Arbitrage International maintained a Luxembourg and a London
office, in addition to its temporary headquarters in Exeter, New
Hampshire.)
"The value of a Constant was based on that of specific amounts
of thirty basic commodities,including gold, silver, iron,
aluminum, lead, copper, nickel, tin, zinc, coal, oil, wheat,
barley, rice, rye, oats, soya, maize, wool, cotton, cocoa,
coffee, copra, hides, jute, rubber, cement, sulphur and sugar,
and holders could sell them at any time for the total of
whatever the constituents were then worth:
[img width=640
height=360]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-170415140958.jpeg[/img]
Borsodi’s organisation, Independent Arbitrage International,
recalculated the Constant’s underlying value monthly and let the
banks know. " People who bought Constants from Borsodi’s
organisation at, say, $2.18 a 10-Constant note were surprised
later when the bank paid them $2.19 for it" a local
newspaperman, Mel
Most, wrote after the experiment had been running for seven
months."
"To everybody’s surprise, even including Borsodi, many people
bought Constant notes and made deposits in the bank checking
account. At the same time Constants began to circulate around
the town of Exeter, where restaurants and other businesses
accepted them in payment."
The participants in the experiment saw the value of their
constant rise 17% in three years. 36 months into the test, "...a
constant bought in 1970 can still be traded for exactly one
constant’s worth of goods . . . while a dollar will now buy only
85% of what it would purchase three years ago."
3 09 Ralph Borsodi Constant Currency
HTML http://www.scribd.com/doc/13266703/3-09-Ralph-Borsodi-Constant-Currency#
HERE is the typical BALONEY double talk response from the
gooberment:
What did the U.S. Treasury Department have to say about the
private currency?
A Treasury agent was quoted at the time saying, "We don’t care
if he issues pine cones, as long as it is exchangeable for
dollars so that transactions can be recorded for tax purposes."
BALONEY!
"Tax purposes" DOES NOT HAVE BEANS to do with it and COERCION to
make people accept a worthless fiat currency issued by the
"Federal" Reserve has EVERYTHING to do with it. But they don't
say that, do they? THE INSTANT people with REAL currency try to
PROPERLY value fiat dollars (see USED toilet paper or less), the
profit over planet counterfeiters get their family jewels in an
uproar.
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-170415144817.jpeg
[url=
HTML http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,4600.msg73211.html#msg73211What<br
/>must be done to avoid Extinction[/url]
Feel free to pass this on with or without attribution. TPTB, not
the overwhelming majority of the human biomass, are killing this
biosphere. WE HAVE TO STOP THEIR SUICIDAL INSANITY OR WE WILL GO
EXTINCT.
NOTE: I wrote above proposal in April of this year. I haven't
been invited to the White House. ;D I didn't really think I
would. That is not "despair", pal. That is understanding the
reality of the massive denial most Homo SAPS are into about our
existential threat form human caused pollution.
Alan,
You seem to be saying the if the odds of N.T.H.E. are high
enough, as determined by the scientific community (NOT just
McPherson!), that is peddling despair and prevent progress
thorough incremental measures. That is not a logical deduction.
What the high odds ACTUALLY does, once governments digest the
reality of the threat, is justify massive and drastic action to
postpone it and possibly eliminate it.
You refuse to see that.
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183337.bmp
#Post#: 3786--------------------------------------------------
Re: You will have to pick a side. There is no longer Room for Pr
ocrastination
By: AGelbert Date: September 15, 2015, 1:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
K-Dog said Agelbert,[quote] I appreciate your insight regarding
the demonization of hippies. [/quote]
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/thankyou.gif
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