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#Post#: 8853--------------------------------------------------
Gravity Energy Storage - The New Stone Age
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: January 18, 2018, 10:22 pm
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HTML https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/all/themes/clew/logo.png
January 18, 2018
Spiegel / Heindl Energy
[center]German company plans large-scale power storage using
massive rock block[/center]
Southern German company Heindl Energy proposes to overcome one
of the energy transition’s central challenges – how to store
renewable electricity on a large scale – with a pumped hydro
system that does not require mountains, reports Ralph Diermann
for Spiegel Online.
The company wants to use a massive rock piston with a diameter
of at least 100 metres, which is lifted hydraulically using
electrical pumps powered by renewable energy. Storage experts
told the author that the idea is valid in principle, but many
technical hurdles will have to be overcome. Heindl Energy, which
has received support from a venture capital investor, is
currently in negotiations to build a pilot project with a
diameter of 20 metres in Saudi Arabia.
[center]
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-180118231521.jpeg[/center]
[center]
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/looksmiley.gif
[/center]
About Gravity Storage
Gravity Storage is a concept with which unprecedentedly large
quantities of power can be stored for a long time of 6-14 hours,
and can be made available again.
The fundamental principle is based on the hydraulic lifting of a
large rock mass. Using electrical pumps, as already used today
in pumped storage power plants, water is pumped beneath a
movable rock piston, thereby lifting the rock mass.
During times of insufficient generation of renewable power, the
water which is under high pressure from the rock mass, is routed
to a turbine, as in conventional hydroelectric plants, and
generates electricity using a generator.
The capacity of energy storage reaches 8 GWh or more
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/19.gif,
comparable to large
Pumped Hydro Storage.
The rock piston should have a diameter of at least 100 meters in
order to be competitive with pumped storage power plants. The
real costs will vary for each site. But we calculate with costs
of about 200 USD/kWh capacity at a size of 250-meter diameter.
READ MORE:
HTML https://www.heindl-energy.com/technical-concept/
#Post#: 9693--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gravity Energy Storage - The New Stone Age
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: May 23, 2018, 10:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: roamer link ---
>
> AG,
> Check these german guys out
HTML http://www.sun-orbit.de/
HTML http://www.sun-orbit.de/
They have pretty much realized all my
best ideas on synergistic greenhouse energy systems. They are
all combined power solar thermal systems based on low speed high
volume stirling engine systems.
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: RE link ---
>
> [quote author=agelbert link=topic=10994.msg154026#msg154026
date=1527027870]
> [center]To RE: About that gravity system you are pondering -
check this out[/center]
>
> If this is applied on a somewhat smaller scale, it will work
better than a tower mechanism, simply because it is less exposed
to the elements:
>
>
HTML https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/all/themes/clew/logo.png
>
> January 18, 2018
>
> [size=14pt]Spiegel / Heindl Energy
> [center]German company plans large-scale power storage using
massive rock block[/center]
>
> Southern German company Heindl Energy proposes to overcome one
of the energy transition’s central challenges – how to store
renewable electricity on a large scale – with a pumped hydro
system that does not require mountains, reports Ralph Diermann
for Spiegel Online.
>
> The company wants to use a massive rock piston with a diameter
of at least 100 metres, which is lifted hydraulically using
electrical pumps powered by renewable energy. Storage experts
told the author that the idea is valid in principle, but many
technical hurdles will have to be overcome. Heindl Energy, which
has received support from a venture capital investor, is
currently in negotiations to build a pilot project with a
diameter of 20 metres in Saudi Arabia.
>
>
[center]
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-180118231521.jpeg[/center]
> [center]
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/looksmiley.gif<br
/>[/center]
>
>
> About Gravity Storage
>
> Gravity Storage is a concept with which unprecedentedly large
quantities of power can be stored for a long time of 6-14 hours,
and can be made available again.
>
> The fundamental principle is based on the hydraulic lifting of
a large rock mass. Using electrical pumps, as already used today
in pumped storage power plants, water is pumped beneath a
movable rock piston, thereby lifting the rock mass.
>
> During times of insufficient generation of renewable power,
the water which is under high pressure from the rock mass, is
routed to a turbine, as in conventional hydroelectric plants,
and generates electricity using a generator.
>
> The capacity of energy storage reaches 8 GWh or more
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/19.gif,
comparable to large
Pumped Hydro Storage.
>
> The rock piston should have a diameter of at least 100 meters
in order to be competitive with pumped storage power plants. The
real costs will vary for each site. But we calculate with costs
of about 200 USD/kWh capacity at a size of 250-meter diameter.
>
> READ MORE:
>
>
HTML https://www.heindl-energy.com/technical-concept/
>
--- End Quote ---
This is the principle. Good find AG. The difference in
efficiency between going down into the ground versus going up is
not going to be very significant. For a big system, it's
necessary because building any tower you could haul up that much
mass with would be prohibitively expensive, not to mention not
very safe.
I think more on the small scale for the individual or small
community. Big storage plants like this would be run by the Big
Energy companies as the shift is made from FFs as a profit
center for the elite.
In most cases, it would be impractical and too expensive to dig
the big hole deep enough to fit your mass. You could much more
easily weld together a TeePee frame from steel pipe with a
hexagonal patern of supports that could handle pulling up a Ton
into the air 20" high. Or you could split the difference and
dig your hole 10' deep and have the tower lift the mass 10' more
than that. You also are not restricted to just one of these
storage units, you could build several of them, one for each of
your banks of PV Panels or Wind Turbines. There are 100's of
millions of Car & Truck alternators available you could
reconfigure to work with your system. All DIY stuff, no fancy
chemical processing necessary. The whole system can be tested
out first on a very small scal in the backyard with much less
weight, probably 500 lbs would be a good size to start with.
Scale it up once you empirically determine how well it works.
The lifting weight can be just about anything reasonably Dense,
Sandbags or 55 Gal barrels of water for instance. Your
mechanical transmission as I mentioned could come from any
off-road bike designed for trail riding that has a really low
gear. Buy that on the used market cheap also. You can even buy
a wrecked one (many of those after any race) for pennies. All
the rest of the hardware available at your local Home Depot.
It would be interesting to see how big a system you would need
for a renewable array the size of the one DB runs. Time for a
new project DB!
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185701.png
RE[/quote]
#Post#: 9694--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gravity Energy Storage - The New Stone Age
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: May 23, 2018, 10:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: roamer link ---
>
> RE,
> Three approaches come to mind at small scale.
> 1) Pumped micro hydro storage
> 2) Drag/roll trailer up/down a hill
> 3)Raised mass using a structure.
>
> Most important point to understand is gravitational energy
density is extremely low, 1 ton raised 100 ft only stores .076
kwhr. A little over 25 ton raised 100 ft stores 1kwhr.
Building towers option 3 is expensive, building short towers
less so. Still at 10 ft of elevation difference you'd need to
be moving 250 tons to get 1kwhr of storage. Perhaps cement
piers raising stone? I think though it seems infeasible.
Moving up the list to #2 we could drag trailers up a hill and
roll them down. You'd need heavy hoist motor and cable at those
mass amounts. Thinking the winch is $1000 the cable $500 the
trailer $1000 the controller and tie in $?? Maybe it could be
done for <$3000 Option 1 is probably the most reasonable.
Each 225 gallons of water would store a kwhr over 100' of
elevation. The pumps and generator could be had for <$1000 the
piping <$1000 and maybe a total system of <$3000.
>
> However as cools as something like this is, its probably worth
comparing to battery tech at this point. That same 1 kwr
storage can be had for like $400/kwhr and a tiny fraction of the
space.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 9695--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gravity Energy Storage - The New Stone Age
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: May 23, 2018, 10:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Palloy2 link ---
>
> I'll take that as an attempt at peace-making and reciprocate.
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185701.png
>
> When I bounce your own words (selected sentences) back at you,
and in response you call me "full of s h i t" and other insults,
I don't respond happily either and I don't think any other Diner
would. People that only know me through my writings (often in
local newspapers) and then meet me face to face often comment
that I am much nicer in person. I take that as a compliment of
my writing style, which is supposed to be in hard-edged
newspaper style.
>
> I have also been told I have a professorial style, giving
little lectures to people on scientific subjects. This is
because I find the audience generally has a very poor grasp of
scientific subjects and/or a very sloppy way of putting things
when they need to be accurate.
>
> For example, RE's energy storage system, as gravitational
potential energy, is neatly expressed as:
> E = m.g.h
> where m is mass, h is height and g is the gravitational
constant.
> The units have to be converted to a consistent system, here
the Metre-Kilogram-Second system giving an answer in Joules.
>
> So lifting a tonne up a metre against earth's gravity, takes
> Energy = (1,000 × 0.981 × 1) = 981 joules = 981 watts for 1
second
> = 0.272 watts for 1 hour
>
> which is not much, and explains why you need to do it on an
unfeasibly BIG scale to store a useful amount of energy.
>
--- End Quote ---
::)
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp
--- Quote from: RE link ---
>
> [quote author=roamer link=topic=10994.msg154039#msg154039
date=1527039776]
> RE,
> Three approaches come to mind at small scale.
> 1) Pumped micro hydro storage
> 2) Drag/roll trailer up/down a hill
> 3)Raised mass using a structure.
>
> Most important point to understand is gravitational energy
density is extremely low, 1 ton raised 100 ft only stores .076
kwhr. A little over 25 ton raised 100 ft stores 1kwhr.
Building towers option 3 is expensive, building short towers
less so. Still at 10 ft of elevation difference you'd need to
be moving 250 tons to get 1kwhr of storage. Perhaps cement
piers raising stone? I think though it seems infeasible.
Moving up the list to #2 we could drag trailers up a hill and
roll them down. You'd need heavy hoist motor and cable at those
mass amounts. Thinking the winch is $1000 the cable $500 the
trailer $1000 the controller and tie in $?? Maybe it could be
done for <$3000 Option 1 is probably the most reasonable.
Each 225 gallons of water would store a kwhr over 100' of
elevation. The pumps and generator could be had for <$1000 the
piping <$1000 and maybe a total system of <$3000.
>
> However as cools as something like this is, its probably worth
comparing to battery tech at this point. That same 1 kwr
storage can be had for like $400/kwhr and a tiny fraction of the
space.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well, for the Test Protoype it really doesn't matter how much
energy it will store and you can get back, it will scale up.
The next question is how much storage does the individual
Prepper need here? How many KwHours is really necessary in a
typical situation using all low energy consuming electrical
devices?
Based on your early numbers, I would go with a 25' Hole in the
Ground (you and LD can have a months long Digging Competitiion)
and a 25' Tower above that. What would the weight be? I would
try a 20 long ConEx filled with Concrete as a starter. This
will weigh well over 40 Tons. How many KwHrs do you get out of
40 Tons raised 50'?
You will of course need more than steel pipe for this tower. It
might be built from reeinforced concrete, or you could use steel
I-Beams. You'll need a heck of a winch to yank this load up, no
matter how you gear it. You'll also probably want to get your
gearing off a wrecked big rig, that will keep those costs down.
Cable will be a significant cost as well, that will need to be
some prety thick and heavy stuff too.
In terms of cost efficiency, right now the chemical storage
system is cheaper, but you depend on many things to keep that
system running in the post collapse world. This system has more
resilience. So it's a trade off. I'd estimate WAG $20K to have
a system good enough to run a house at typcal energy usage in a
farm community.
RE
[/quote]
Okay Roamer, I'll check the link out. Thanks for the positive
reply, RE.
As to Palloy and his claim that gravity systems for energy
storage need to be "unfeasbly" huge, he, as usual, is stating a
half truth.
For example, it is it is possible to operate ALL the lights in a
house throughout the night with a gravity generator system. The
problem with our modern thinking is that we want some system to
DO IT ALL. That is totally unnecessary, but it helps the Palloys
of this world claim that this or that "will never work".
Roamer, I'm glad you are here. since you are a mechanical
engineer, I wish you would find the time to put Palloy in his
proper place. The guy is an expert in sophistry and is fond of
poo pooing absolutely anything that departs from the
unsustainable energy status quo. He may believe he is
"professorial", but he is actually routinely offensively
pedantic. I got sick of arguing with him and just don't bother
any more.
At any rate Roamer, thanks for your input. I hope all is well
with you.
#Post#: 9696--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gravity Energy Storage - The New Stone Age
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: May 23, 2018, 10:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: roamer link ---
>
> Eddie, The units I want to build will not feed a family or an
individual, they will produce your salad year round basically
with no inputs and provide you a free refrigerator and water
storage/capture. It is a resilient hedge not an autonomous
stand alone system, at least not for the first prototypes. I
think I can build the simplest no frills most cost effective
version. I agree too texas would take deep expensive
geothermal.
>
> I actually agree with you on crowdfunding, I guess I am just
curious. I'd be building this thing yesterday if I could
justify it economincally, but after losing my crypto gamblings
and milk prices in the shitter kind of hard to motivate actually
doing any of this.
>
> However I am very happy to see that
HTML http://www.sun-orbit.de/
HTML http://www.sun-orbit.de/
are a company who have basically
realized similar concepts. If you were looking for a system
maybe you could consider being there first american customer?
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 9697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gravity Energy Storage - The New Stone Age
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: May 24, 2018, 4:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: roamer link ---
>
> AG,
> Check these german guys out
HTML http://www.sun-orbit.de/
HTML http://www.sun-orbit.de/
They have pretty much realized all my
best ideas on synergistic greenhouse energy systems. They are
all combined power solar thermal systems based on low speed high
volume stirling engine systems.
>
--- End Quote ---
Roamer: The link you gave me goes nowhere
This is what it shows (after translating it to English):
--- Quote ---
> [center]This new domain has been registered in the sales
order.[/center]
> Why is this page displayed?
>
> This page was created automatically. It is deposited with each
new domain and shows that the new domain is reachable.
> Without this placeholder page, visitors would receive an error
message. As a customer of united-domains, you can configure this
domain in your domain portfolio online at any time (eg web
redirects, e-mail settings, add web space, change DNS entries).
>
> united-domains - the best addresses for the web
>
> Register more domains cheaply
>
> Preorder new domain extensions
>
> imprint
> © united-domains AG. All rights reserved.
>
--- End Quote ---
[center]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191404.bmp<br
/> ???
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-301014182447.gif[/center]
#Post#: 17117--------------------------------------------------
New Crane Mechanism Gravity Battery
DIR By: AGelbert
Date: November 27, 2021, 3:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
156,503 views Nov 26, 2021
[center]This Is Not a Crane, It's an Insane
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/2/3-010519192318-2207382.gif<br
/>New Gravity Battery
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/1/3-120818185039-1655102.gif<br
/>[/center]
[center]
HTML https://youtu.be/WCawtiU4o1o[/center]
Anton Petrov 929K subscribers
Good telescope that I've used to learn the basics:
HTML https://amzn.to/35r1jAk
Get a Wonderful Person shirt: teespring.com/stores/whatdamath
Alternatively, PayPal donations can be sent here:
HTML http://paypal.me/whatdamath
Hello and welcome! My name is Anton and in this video, we will
talk about an interesting concept of storing energy using
gravity - a gravity battery
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
HTML https://www.energyvault.com/
HTML https://gravitricity.com/
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