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       #Post#: 16788--------------------------------------------------
       Could this be a game changer?
   DIR By: AGelbert
       Date: July 21, 2021, 2:56 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [center]Hydrogen Home Storage. Could this be a game
       changer?[/center]
       [center]
  HTML https://youtu.be/0_bTjcjqN6c[/center]
       201,258 views  :o 👍 Mar 28, 2021
       Just Have a Think
       282K subscribers
       The Hydrogen Economy is a buzz phrase that has been doing the
       rounds in recent months, and it seems to have provoked quite a
       bit of contentious debate. Some folks are extremely optimistic
       about the positive impact that green hydrogen can have on our
       energy systems. Others think hydrogen might be a back door for
       🦕 methane gas 😈 producers. But a new energy
       storage system now puts green hydrogen production firmly into
       the hands of the consumer. On site, in their own home. Safely
       and reliably. Could this one be a game changer?
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-221017161839.png
       Video Transcripts available at our website
  HTML http://www.justhaveathink.com
       Help support this channels independence at
  HTML http://www.patreon.com/justhaveathink
       #Post#: 16798--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Renewable Hydrogen Power
   DIR By: AGelbert
       Date: July 26, 2021, 4:16 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-170218174357.png
       July 25, 2021 By John Konrad
       [center]
  HTML https://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/1560194304446-1536x1152.jpg[/center]
       [center]Scripps Institution of Oceanography at UC San Diego
       research vessel Robert Gordon Sproul[/center]
       [center]Scripps Gets $35M From California To Build A
       Hydrogen-Powered Research Vessel[/center]
       SNIPPET:
       “Scripps has guided countless scientific projects aboard the R/V
       Robert Gordon Sproul” said California Senator Tempore Toni G.
       Atkins. “After a four-decade run, it is high time Scripps built
       a new research vessel that can keep up with the high-caliber
       work they continue to churn out, and help our state navigate the
       troubled waters of sea-level rise and our evolving climate.”
       The proposed 125-foot vessel will take three years to design,
       build, and commission, and replace the Research Vessel Robert
       Gordon Sproul, which has served 40 years of service. This new
       vessel will continue the university’s educational mission to
       train the next generation of scientists.
       “With 840 miles of coastline, it is important for California to
       manage its access to the vast resources of the Pacific Ocean,”
       said UC San Diego Chancellor Pradeep K. Khosla.
       The new vessel will feature an innovative hybrid propulsion
       system that integrates hydrogen fuel cells alongside a
       conventional diesel-electric power plant, enabling zero-emission
       operations. The design is scaled so the ship will operate 75
       percent of its missions entirely using a non-fossil
       fuel—hydrogen—with only pure water and electricity as reaction
       products. For longer missions, extra power will be provided by
       clean-running diesel generators. The vessel represents a major
       step in advancing California’s pledge to reduce global climate
       risk while transitioning to a carbon-neutral economy.
       “Our vision is to build an oceanographic research vessel that
       can be powered independently from 🦕 fossil fuels
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/1/3-120818185040-1659929.gif,<br
       />and be free from the criteria pollutants and greenhouse gas
       emissions,” said Bruce Appelgate, associate director and head of
       ship operations at Scripps Oceanography.
       Full article:
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/1/3-120818184310-1635923.gif<br
       />
  HTML https://gcaptain.com/scripps-hydrogen-research-vessel/
       [center]
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/styles/renewablerevolution/files/3076_Independence%20from%20Fossil%20Fuels.png[/center]
       #Post#: 16941--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Renewable Hydrogen Power
   DIR By: AGelbert
       Date: October 1, 2021, 4:40 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
  HTML https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/all/themes/cleanenergywire/logo.png
       October 1, 2021
       [center]
       Germany facilitates green hydrogen production at sea with new
       regulation
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/1/3-120818185039-1655102.gif[/center]
       Regulation that will enable green hydrogen production in the
       North Sea entered into force on 1 October. With the new
       ordinance, the German government facilitates the testing of
       hydrogen production using offshore electricity, such as offshore
       wind energy, in the German exclusive economic zone. “The
       production of green hydrogen at sea is a genuine future topic
       with high innovation potential.
       Offshore hydrogen production can make an important contribution
       to decarbonising Germany as an industrial location,” said German
       economic affairs minister Peter Altmaier. Germany has launched a
       first project that promotes offshore hydrogen production.
       The H2Mare project, which is to receive 100 million euros in
       funding from the research ministry, aims to achieve “a
       significant cost advantage in the production of large quantities
       of hydrogen” in the coming four years, the ministry writes.
       The Offshore Wind Energy Foundation welcomed the new regulation,
       calling it a “necessary and important step” on the way to
       offshore-based hydrogen production, even though “it is still
       unclear in the evaluation criteria what role the logistics
       concept for bringing the hydrogen onshore plays in the
       allocation,” said Karina Würtz, the head of the foundation.
       “With a view to the coming federal government, it is now clear
       that more and further steps are urgently needed, such as the
       binding definition of expansion targets and the sufficient
       designation of areas for green hydrogen production,” she said.
  HTML https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/germany-facilitates-green-hydrogen-production-sea-new-regulation
       #Post#: 16965--------------------------------------------------
       At Airbus, we have the ambition to develop the world’s first
       zero-emission commercial aircraft by 2035. 
   DIR By: AGelbert
       Date: October 10, 2021, 4:41 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [center]Hydrogen propulsion to power future aircraft[/center]
  HTML https://youtu.be/5Fi65k2K3Mw
       At Airbus, we have the ambition to develop the world’s first
       zero-emission commercial aircraft by 2035.
       [b]All three ZEROe concepts are hybrid-hydrogen aircraft.
       [/b]They are powered by hydrogen combustion through modified gas
       turbine engines. Liquid hydrogen is used as fuel for combustion
       with oxygen.
       In addition, hydrogen fuel cells create electrical power that
       complements the gas turbine, resulting in a highly efficient
       hybrid-electric propulsion system. All of these technologies are
       complementary, and the benefits are additive.
  HTML https://www.airbus.com/innovation/zero-emission/hydrogen/zeroe.html
       #Post#: 17222--------------------------------------------------
       French City Cancels Hydrogen Bus Contract, Opts For Electric
       Buses
   DIR By: AGelbert
       Date: January 13, 2022, 3:09 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       January 11, 2022
       [center]French City Cancels Hydrogen Bus Contract, Opts For
       Electric Buses
  HTML https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/11/french-city-cancels-hydrogen-bus-contract-opts-for-electric-buses/#comment-5688418127[/center]
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-191017143841.jpeg<br
       />Agelbert NOTE: What follows is a recent reality based
       discussion
       about hydrogen gas uses, how it is produced, why it should be
       produced exclusively from Renewable Energy Sourced electricity,
       no matter how "inefficient" ::) electrolysis is, and why the
       &#129430; hydrocarbon industry must not be allowed to CONTINUE
       to dominate the market on hydrogen gas by producing it from
       methane through a ruinously polluting and inefficient (i.e.
       ERoEI NEGATIVE!) process:
       TSW >  Will Meek • 2 days ago
       Again, I'm not trying to make a case for hydrogen buses or any
       other short-distance transportation, but it is quite possible
       for LCOE of hydrogen to be below the LCOE of electricity. The
       reason is because hydrogen can be stored for long periods of
       time at low cost in caverns and can be transported over long
       distances in ships without encountering the externalities of
       country borders and geopolitics. This allows the use of off-peak
       power and sourcing from low cost production areas such as Chile.
       Chile claims they will be able to export hydrogen at $1.50/kg by
       2030. Assuming approximately 54% efficiency back to electricity
       (60% fuel cell, 10% shipping & miscellaneous losses), plus 10%
       transport & 10% CAPEX costs, that is approximately $0.10/kwh.
       Note that this is a simplification & an approximation, & there
       is potential for error in both directions. That sounds good for
       solar/wind which are at approximately $0.03/kwh LCOE. However,
       hydrogen is available on demand, whereas solar/wind requires
       battery backup and/or new transmission and/or overcapacity to
       approach on demand. LCOE impacts from new transmission &
       overcapacity is too hard to determine to address here. Battery
       storage LCOE is approximately $0.12/kwh. All LCOE prices come
       from 2021 EIA estimates.
       I won't show detail for use of otherwise curtailed PV/wind, but
       if it can be purchased on the spot market for $0.01/kwh, it has
       the potential for undercutting PV/wind LCOE when you include
       costs for storage/transmission/overcapacity required for on
       demand production.
       agelbert > TSW  a day ago
       I agree that the LCOE of hydrogen is below the LCOE of
       electricity, but that is really a side issue. Hydrogen should be
       competing with hydrocarbons, not Renewable Energy based
       electricity.
       For cars, battery powered electricy is best overall, due to high
       reliability and safety combined with low maintenance costs.
       However, for aircraft, hydrogen is best. The point is to get off
       hydrocarbon based energy sources, like YESTERDAY!
       TSW > André Balsa • a day ago
       I actually agree with the primary idea here that Japanese
       government policy is pushing hydrogen and the car companies such
       as Toyota and Honda are just responding to that policy. It
       appears that many here think that it is the car companies
       pushing hydrogen to the politicians, but I don't find that very
       plausible. Where I probably differ is that I think that Japanese
       hydrogen policy is a rational response to their need to import
       30-40% of their energy.
       eveee > TSW • a day ago
       Is it a rational policy? Have you thought that through or
       researched it? “Japan has twice the per-hectare high-quality
       renewable potential of North America, three times that of
       Europe, and nine times that of Germany.” Japan is currently #4
       in the Renewable Energy Country Attractiveness Index (RECAI)."
       Japan is not tapping its full renewables potential, but instead
       investing in tech that is not up to the task.
       And it makes no sense to talk about energy independence and then
       develop a policy based on importing hydrogen produced from
       Australia. Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not a source.
       Meanwhile, Japan has plenty of untapped local renewable sources.
       This policy is simply irrational.
       Japan, Australia firms look to build large-scale green liquefied
       hydrogen supply chain
  HTML https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/japan-australia-firms-look-build-large-scale-green-liquefied-hydrogen-supply-2021-09-15/
       The Pace Of Japan’s Renewable Development Is Slowing
  HTML https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/07/pace-japans-renewable-development-slowing/
       agelbert > eveee a day ago
       I hear ya eveee but don't believe the myth pushed for the last
       70 years by the hydrocarbon industry about Hydrogen being an
       "energy carrier" instead of a source. There is a very good
       reason that many rockets use liquid hydrogen and oxygen instead
       of aviation jet fuel to get to space.
       I've studied the matter, all the way into the weeds of the gamed
       enthalpy numbers to make hydrocarbons look "more energy dense".
       They are LESS energy dense than Hydrogen gas.
       Hydrogen is a source of high energy.
       Hydrogen should have its place in aviation while battery powered
       electric motors should drive EVs. The point is to get off
       hydrocarbons, like YESTERDAY!
       eveee > agelbert • 19 hours ago
       Yes, get off hydrocarbons. I just think hydrogen is not the best
       thing to transport or store. Ammonia or synfuels from hydrogen
       may be better. Depends on what its used for. As storage,
       hydrogen has competition from pumped hydro and others. A
       fundamental issue is that steam reformed hydrogen is cheaper
       than hydrogen from renewables. Its hard to work against the
       economics.
       The efficiency also matters for some processes. It doesnt matter
       for hydrogen used for chemicals, just the cost, and how
       efficiency affects it. As competition with FF cost is a barrier
       on a fuel equivalent basis.
       agelbert> eveee 18 hours ago
       All true. I just feel that with the cost of harvesting energy
       from the sun and wind (and tides, geothermal, etc.) getting so
       cheap and, unlike hydrocarbons, easy and clean, the efficiency
       is not the main consideration any longer.
       The environmental benefit must now permanently be the overriding
       consideration, as I explained in the following comment I just
       made to ctromley after his comment (quoted below) where he makes
       the case that Hydrogen gas production has a negative ERoEI (i.e.
       it is too inefficient to be worth our attention). I agree that
       electrolysis based hydrogen production is inefficient. I
       completely disagree that we should not be actively producing
       hydrogen gas this way using some of the surplus electrical
       energy produced during Renewable Energy harvesting operations
       because if we don't do that, the hydrocarbon industry crooks
       will continue to own the hydrogen gas market where they produce
       it even more inefficiently from CH4, like they are now doing for
       massive profits.
       ctromley • 12 hours ago
       The question becomes, why use electricity to split water into
       hydrogen and oxygen and then use the hydrogen to power fuel
       cells that make electricity when you can? Every time energy is
       converted from one form to another, losses inevitably occur.
       It really is this simple and obvious. It continues to amaze me
       how the H2 crowd gets any traction at all.
       I used to think that H2 might have some sensible use in niche
       applications like aircraft or long-haul trucking. But synthetic
       fuels are probably easier and cheaper, and even then only for
       aircraft.
       I strongly suspect the whole H2 boondoggle is nothing but an
       attempt by the fossil fuel industry to give theme something more
       easy to transition to. Electric power gives them essentially
       nothing. They have to start from scratch, and others have ahead
       start.
       &#129300; agelbert > ctromley 3 hours ago
       Based on what you just wrote, which is admittedly logical and
       fact based, crude oil would never have been converted into
       gasoline in a refinery. The gamed Energy Return on Energy
       Invested (i.e. ERoEI) numbers of hydrocarbon fuels is based on
       MONEY (i.e government welfare queen subsidy swag and tax breaks
       and oil shocks and wars and so on), not actual energy units. The
       electricity used in refineries is VAST (e.g. Oil Refineries are
       the LARGEST source of electrical demand in Texas!), yet they
       NEVER input that energy COST into crude oil per barrel ERoEI
       because it is A) subsidized and B) mostly from coal generated
       electricity (still true to a large extent).
       The hydrocarbon crooks have kept that scam going for over a
       century. When ALL the ACTUAL energy costs of producing
       hydrocabon fuels are input into the ERoEI formula, hydrocarbons
       have a NEGATIVE ERoEI. Yet, they have been the energy basis of
       our thoroughly polluted civilization for over a century.
       The issue here is not simply ERoEI, but pollution costs. We, as
       a civilization, need to stop fixating on "energy efficiency"
       numbers and, instead, soberly look at environmental costs above
       any other consideration. Because Renewables are so easily
       harvested, they do not need to be so efficient. For example, a
       solar panel will make electricity, whether you need it or not,
       as long as the sun is shining. Also, as long as the wind is
       blowing, a wind turbine wil do likewise. There is a place for
       that excess electricity, which comes to us at almost ZERO cost.
       Yes, we will send more of it to battery banks but, in addition,
       we should use it to make clean green hydrogen as well.
       Hydrogen gas is required for many chemical processes. At this
       moment, it is the hydrocarbon industry that supplies ALL OF IT!
       Do you want them to be able to continue with that grossly ERoEI
       NEGATIVE (even worse than for making hydrocarbon fuels!)
       production of Hydrogen from methane? I don't.
       eveee > agelbert • an hour ago
       The entire purpose of the legacy energy industry is to increase
       consumption. Its really that simple. Its the economics. The fact
       that economics is screwed up by capitalism is very evident. It
       needs consumption. Waste is even beneficial for profits.
       Short term gain is fine. From a myopic perspective, its get rich
       now, pay later.
       But from a rational perspective, and an environmental one, no
       energy has zero cost. With renewables, it just doesnt have a
       fuel cost, and byproducts that are as harmful as fuels. It still
       has a cost for the means to convert it to useful results,but as
       you and I agree, those costs are much lower than legacy fuel
       related energy.
       The issue here is how best to utilize those renewable sources.
       While some uses of conversion to hydrogen and then on to other
       forms or end uses can be useful, I think its pretty clear to me
       that legacy FF entitities are intending to substitute their
       sources of hydrogen for so called green ones or at least confuse
       the issue, and with a powerful profit motive. Therein lies the
       rub.
       They certainly cannot be trusted based on past and present
       behavior.
       There are some recent articles about converting to ammonia that
       may be of interest. So far the perspectives on using hydrogen
       directly do not appear so easy, particularly for things like
       aircraft. Those discussions have appeared on these blogs in
       conjunction with the author of those ammonia articles. Among
       other things, in aircraft, there is an issue of a water vapor in
       the atmosphere being a GW forcing function and it is a serious
       issue. Its a actually a major part of combustion aircraft GW
       effects, not just carbon.
       I commented earlier that I see no reason not to displace as much
       of the hydrogen produced from FF as we can with better
       processes. Among those is methane to hydrogen to ammonia, and
       used as feedstock to make fertilizer. This does have a GW
       effect. It would be great to displace that. Likewise, can be
       used in steelmaking.
       Those are of immediate interest.
       agelbert  eveee • an hour ago
       &#127774; Well said. I agree.
       [center]
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       [center]
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       [center]
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       eveee > agelbert • an hour ago
       I always enjoy your graphics. Thanks agelbert.
       agelbert > eveee • 25 minutes ago
       You are welcome, my friend. Thank you for always clearly telling
       it like it IS about the undeniable &#128171; benefits of
       Renewable Energy Technology to our civilization.
  HTML https://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/2/3-301021140910.gif
       #Post#: 17245--------------------------------------------------
       GlobalFoundries plans to pilot ‘green hydrogen’ system
   DIR By: AGelbert
       Date: January 21, 2022, 12:45 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [center]
  HTML http://dl10.glitter-graphics.net/pub/2491/2491210ovie015m90.gif[/center]
       [center]
  HTML https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/zAE24oQErXOpoVTSHpmisw_f_aV-XbV8d0r2vhgQLFvryr-JhLIvIYRZf81gD29sNxZEkblO02smodIiFI3qIuYKveRJ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://vtdigger.org/emailtemplate/vtd-fulllogo.png[/center]
       Jan 20 2022, 6:39 PM By Shaun Robinson
       [center]
  HTML https://vtdigger.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/global-foundries-1-768x512.jpg[/center]
       GlobalFoundries’ offices in Essex. File photo by Mike
       Dougherty/VTDigger
       [center]GlobalFoundries plans to pilot ‘green hydrogen’ system
  HTML https://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/2/3-160921144626.png[/center]
       BURLINGTON — GlobalFoundries plans to produce and use “green
       hydrogen” to heat its manufacturing plant in Essex Junction,
       working with Vermont Gas Systems and the University of Vermont
       to pilot a fuel source that could be adopted more widely across
       the state.
       Green hydrogen gets its moniker because the gas is extracted
       without producing new carbon emissions. &#9889; Electricity from
       renewable sources, such as wind or solar, is used to separate
       water into hydrogen and oxygen, a process that’s called
       electrolysis.
       Most hydrogen used for fuel today is extracted from &#129429;
       fossil fuels
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183337.bmp,<br
       />generating excess carbon emissions. This gas is known as
       “gray”
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183337.bmp<br
       />or
       “blue”
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183337.bmp<br
       />hydrogen.
       GlobalFoundries plans to use green hydrogen to displace some of
       the &#129429; gas in the existing natural gas lines at its “Fab
       9” campus. If the pilot succeeds, the company then wants to
       incorporate green hydrogen into its &#129302; chip manufacturing
       process.
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/1/3-210818163127-1680962.png
       The project, called the Vermont Green Hydrogen Partnership
  HTML https://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/2/3-300919160022-2281531.png,<br
       />was announced at a press conference Thursday at the University
       of Vermont. It’s the first of its kind in the state,
       representatives from GlobalFoundries and Vermont Gas Systems
       said.
       “Green hydrogen is a key strategy in diversifying our fuel
       supply with renewable options,” said Neale Lunderville,
       president and CEO of Vermont Gas Systems. “This project will
       demonstrate the value of renewable fuel in high-tech
       manufacturing, which is a critical element of fighting climate
       change.”
       One challenge in producing green hydrogen is its cost.
       Currently, green hydrogen is 2 to 3 times more expensive to
       produce than hydrogen from fossil fuels
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/1/3-250718211017.gif,<br
       />according to a December 2020 report from the International
       Renewable Energy Agency.
       Vermont Gas Systems plans to fund the project, Lunderville said,
       though organizers have not finalized the cost. Partnering with
       UVM on the project could help organizers secure federal grants
       and offer opportunities for students, he said.
       “We know from our experience with all types of renewable energy,
       costs start high, and then they go down,” Lunderville said.
       Construction is slated to begin in 2023, provided regulatory
       approval is granted by then.
       Lunderville said expanding green hydrogen production could help
       Vermont Gas Systems meet its commitment to reach net-zero carbon
       emissions by 2050. For instance, he said, the company could use
       the fuel to displace existing natural gas throughout its
       network.
       And Vermont Gas Systems could one day use its network to store
       excess renewable electricity as green hydrogen, then convert it
       back into electricity when needed, Lunderville said.
       8% of Vermont’s electricity
       The pilot project comes amid GlobalFoundries’ proposal to make
       Fab 9 an independent energy utility, buying energy from the
       regional wholesale market rather than Green Mountain Power. That
       would reduce its electricity costs, the company has said.
       At the same time, environmentalists contend this could allow the
       multibillion-dollar company to shirk its responsibility in
       helping the state reduce greenhouse gas emissions as required by
       the 2020 Global Warming Solutions Act.
       GlobalFoundries, headquartered in Malta, New York, has said it
       uses 8% of Vermont’s electricity — more than the city of
       Burlington. Based on estimates from Renewable Energy Vermont, a
       clean energy advocacy organization, the company’s manufacturing
       processes contribute to 3% of Vermont’s greenhouse gas
       emissions.
       In response to a question Thursday, Kenneth McAvey, vice
       president and general manager of Fab 9 for GlobalFoundries, said
       the green hydrogen project demonstrates the company’s commitment
       to reducing its carbon emissions at the facility.
       The money saved by making Fab 9 an independent utility would
       allow GlobalFoundries to further invest in projects such as
       green hydrogen production, he said.
       “Our ongoing initiatives will be well organized and focused on
       putting our state in the forefront of green energy innovation,”
       McAvey said.
       Thursday’s press conference also included a cameo from U.S. Sen.
       Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.
       In pre-recorded remarks, Leahy congratulated the organizations
       involved in the project and said he would help bring it to the
       attention of the U.S. Department of Energy.
       Disclosure: Neale Lunderville is a board member of the Vermont
       Journalism Trust, parent organization of VTDigger.
  HTML https://vtdigger.org/2022/01/20/globalfoundries-plans-to-pilot-green-hydrogen-system/
       ctromley
       The question becomes, why use electricity to split water into
       hydrogen and oxygen and then use the hydrogen to power fuel
       cells that make electricity when you can? Every time energy is
       converted from one form to another, losses inevitably occur.
       &#129300; agelbert > ctromley
       Based on what you just wrote, which is admittedly logical and
       fact based, crude oil would never have been converted into
       gasoline in a refinery. The gamed Energy Return on Energy
       Invested (i.e. ERoEI) numbers of hydrocarbon fuels are based on
       MONEY (i.e government welfare queen subsidy swag and tax breaks
       and oil shocks and wars and so on), not actual energy units. The
       electricity used in refineries is VAST (e.g. Oil Refineries are
       the LARGEST source of electrical demand in Texas!), yet they
       NEVER input that energy COST into crude oil per barrel ERoEI
       because it is A) subsidized and B) mostly from coal generated
       electricity (still true to a large extent).
       The hydrocarbon crooks have kept that scam going for over a
       century. When ALL the ACTUAL energy costs of producing
       hydrocabon fuels are input into the ERoEI formula, hydrocarbons
       have a NEGATIVE ERoEI. Yet, they have been the energy basis of
       our thoroughly polluted civilization for over a century.
       The issue here is not simply ERoEI, but pollution costs. We, as
       a civilization, need to stop fixating on "energy efficiency"
       numbers and, instead, soberly look at environmental costs above
       any other consideration.
       Because Renewables are so easily harvested, they do not need to
       be so efficient. For example, a solar panel will make
       electricity, whether you need it or not, as long as the sun is
       shining. Also, as long as the wind is blowing, a wind turbine
       will do likewise. There is a place for that excess electricity,
       which comes to us at almost ZERO cost. Yes, we will send more of
       it to battery banks but, in addition, we should use it to make
       clean green hydrogen as well.
       Hydrogen gas is required for many chemical processes. At this
       moment, it is the hydrocarbon industry that supplies ALL OF IT!
       Do you want them to be able to continue with that grossly ERoEI
       NEGATIVE (even worse than for making hydrocarbon fuels!)
       production of Hydrogen from methane? I don't.
       [center]
  HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/styles/renewablerevolution/files/3076_Independence%20from%20Fossil%20Fuels.png[/center]
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