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       #Post#: 341--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Darwin
       By: AGelbert Date: November 15, 2013, 1:58 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Ashvin,
       Hear!, Hear!
       When I get to it, I'm going to take a close look at facial
       reconstruction methods of craniums both in forensic science and
       archeology. WHY? Because I have read that the nose of hominids,
       being composed entirely of cartilage, is never preserved.
       Consequently, the shape of the nose in those "scientific"
       pro-evolution "reconstructions" of what the faces of the
       homonids from the skulls they have dug up actually looked like
       are a clear mark of a "hey looky here, this might be a missing
       link" agenda. Specifically, look at that nose (further up) drawn
       that looks like a cross between a human and an ape. That is not
       science; that is wishful thinking.  [img width=30
       height=30]
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113183729.png[/img]
       There is a lot more about  ape versus human skull features
       (special muscles apes have are reflected in upper braincase
       shape) but I need to do more research before I post on it.
       Thank you for posting!
  HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/balloons.gif
       #Post#: 356--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Darwin
       By: Surly1 Date: November 16, 2013, 8:23 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Fair enough. But,
       [quote]When I get to it, I'm going to take a close look at
       facial reconstruction methods of craniums both in forensic
       science and archeology. WHY? Because I have read that the nose
       of hominids, being composed entirely of cartilage, is never
       preserved. Consequently, the shape of the nose in those
       "scientific" pro-evolution "reconstructions" of what the faces
       of the homonids from the skulls they have dug up actually looked
       like are a clear mark of a "hey looky here, this might be a
       missing link" agenda. Specifically, look at that nose (further
       up) drawn that looks like a cross between a human and an ape.
       That is not science; that is wishful thinking.
       [/quote]
       If drawing such a reconstruction were your assignment, how would
       you proceed?  ??? ???
       #Post#: 363--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Darwin
       By: AGelbert Date: November 16, 2013, 8:14 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Well, I still need to do more research on how they rebuild the
       muscles and skin on a cadaver's face with only a skull.
       But here is the premise I would begin with: Muscles are anchored
       with tendons to the bones of mammalian skeletons and appearance
       follows their function.
       Apes, for example, APPEAR to us to be stooped when they are in
       the normal position. They aren't stooped at all. You are seeing
       the way their musculature disguises the skeleton architecture.
       The upper body strength of apes and chimps is much greater than
       that of small monkeys and humans.
       Small monkeys have a much more similar skull (except for the
       fact that it is tiny) to humans than to apes. If I were looking
       for an evolutionary cousin, I'd look for the creature with the
       most similar skull as matter of Occam's Razor. I would not be
       bound by Darwinian accepted assumptions with no scientific
       grounding except the Theory of Evolution champions' (not even
       the theory itself!) assertion that we descended from apes. They
       created a procrustean bed for evolutionary scientists by forcing
       archeologists to ALWAYS look for APE-like missing links.
       And Surly, in nature, DNA can do some very wild things. I have
       seen what a mosquito larvae looks like under a microscope in a
       bit of pond water.  Observe the segmentation present also in
       millipedes and centipedes. Observe the feather/fin like multiple
       appendages instead of feet. It's a swimming centipede!
       [img width=320
       height=200]
  HTML http://uq.edu.au/integrative-ecology/images/Predator/notoscriptus-larva.jpg[/img][img<br
       />width=320
       height=200]
  HTML http://lancaster.unl.edu/pest/images/centipedemillipede/gardncnt.jpg[/img]
       Mosquito larvae on left - much smaller than centipede on right
       Yet a mosquito is not related, according to the evolutionists,
       to a centipede. That is, one did not evolve from the other. The
       insect hordes all show up around the Devonian - supposedly 400
       million years ago with a few changes due to "natural selection"
       and extinction events to arrive at our "modern" insects -
       Triassic until now (you know, Dinosaurs until NOW   ;)).
       [img width=640
       height=380]
  HTML http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/comparison-of-dinosaurs-of-triassic-roy-andersen.jpg[/img]
       comparison of Dinosaurs of the Triassic Period
       [quote]Insect evolution is characterized by rapid adaptation
       ???
       with selective pressures exerted by environment, ???
       with rapid adaptation being furthered by their high fecundity.
       ???
       It appears ??? that rapid radiations and the appearance of new
       species, a process that continues to this day, ???
       result in insects filling all available environmental niches.
       Insect evolution is closely related to the evolution of
       flowering plants.
  HTML http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/stock/thumb_smiley-sign0105.gif<br
       /> Insect adaptations include feeding on flowers and related
       structures, with some 20% of extant insects depending on
       flowers, nectar or pollen for their food source. This symbiotic
       relationship is even more paramount in evolution
  HTML http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TzWpwHzCvCI/T_sBEnhCCpI/AAAAAAAAME8/IsLpuU8HYxc/s1600/nooo-way-smiley.gifconsidering<br
       />that about 2/3 of flowering plants are insect pollinated.  ;)
       Insects are also vectors of many pathogens that may even have
       been responsible for the decimation or extinction of some
       mammalian species.[/quote]
  HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogeny_of_insects
       I will take the above quote apart in a minute but let me tell
       you where I'm going with this centipede/ mosquito thing as
       related to studying hominid skulls.
       We have centipedes and we have mosquitos. How come such
       analogous shapes are allegedly NOT related? BECAUSE they show up
       at the same time in the fossil record. Why do they assume  (no
       proof, just Darwinian based speculation) something is not
       related to something else when they appear at the same time?
       Because the Theory REQUIRES a distance in time for one thing to
       evolve into another, period.
       Now you would say, HEY, didn't Darwin think we came from apes
       (which, of course, exist now too!)? YEP. It was OBVIOUSLY, as
       Ashvin pointed out in a quote here recently, based on prejudice
       against negros and had nothing to do with science. If Darwin had
       been approaching the issue scientifically, he would have to
       ASSUME that all modern life forms are evolved from something
       that is not present today. But he didn't do that, did he?  ;)
       The evolutionary scientists DO THAT today saying that,
       OBVIOUSLY, what we evolved from doesn't exist today so it was
       incorrect to think we are related to apes or chimps. It HAS to
       be that we have a common missing link someplace back there, they
       say. Sniff!
       When they do that they step further into illogic. Why? Because
       Mosquitos and centipedes and dragon flies and MILLIONs (about 12
       million total of which most are insects at last count) of other
       insects STOPPED "EVOLVING" at the time of the Triassic (and the
       links to their Devonian cousins are speculative due to the NEW
       forms that were symbiotic with the NEW types of plant life -
       angiosperms [quote]The apparently sudden appearance of
       relatively modern flowers in the fossil record initially posed
       such a problem for the theory of evolution that it was called an
       "abominable mystery" by Charles Darwin.[6][/quote]
  HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowering_plant)!
       
       But they just don't want to address that brazen bit of
       inconsistency in their flawed theory. Now of course they want to
       talk about "rapid adaptation" and "evolutionary spurts" and all
       sorts of silliness that strains credibility in all but the most
       gullible.
       So, back to the basic premise of a truly scientific approach to
       what is in the fossil record. A mosquito larvae looks like a
       centipede adult form. Let's check the DNA package to look for
       similar gene coding sequences. We find, say a 30% identical set
       of sequences for two creatures that did not evolve from each
       other. Hmmmm. There is NO fossil evidence of insects before the
       Devonian. Working hypothesis: Somebody designed them both. Why?
       Because they have a similar design and did not have time to
       evolve from anything else because there simply isn't anything
       else remotely similar to insects prior to that time. To
       complicate matters further, we have the angiosperms (flowering
       plants) showing up at the same time as the insects that
       pollinate AND feed on them(symbiosis).
       In the quote from the evolutionary view of insect phylogeny
       above, observe the following DATA presented and why the
       conclusions are exactly backwards in an attempt to fit the facts
       to natural selection (and even that they mess up!).
       
       1. RAPID ADAPTATION can ONLY occur when the DNA PACKAGE has
       latent coding sequences that respond to environmental pressures.
       Think of an aircraft fliying through the air. It has a landing
       gear that NEEDS TO BE HIDDEN or the plane won't fly as well.
       However, when it has to land, the landing gear has to come out
       for the plane to survive. The landing gear is in the ORIGINAL
       "DNA" package design of the aircraft and environmental
       conditions cause the "landing gear gene" to be expressed. This
       is NOT EVOLUTION. This is adaptation from a pre-planned DNA
       design.
       The SLOW ADAPTATION to environmental stresses from mutations in
       natural selection CANNOT produce RAPID ANYTHING because 98% of
       mutations are harmful. I've discussed the math before. When
       Positive mutations occur, it is a glacially slow process. That
       process becomes MISSION IMPOSSIBLE when we have multiple
       symbiotic mechanisms occurring SIMULTANEOUSLY between two
       extremely disparate life forms (flowering plants and insects).
       2. After they emit all this silliness, "Insect evolution is
       characterized by rapid adaptation
  HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/126fs3187425.gif
       
       with selective pressures exerted by environment,..."
  HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/126fs3187425.gif,
       they jump to
       the old 'evolution through multiple generations'  trick,   ;)
       "with rapid adaptation being furthered by their high fecundity."
  HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/126fs3187425.gif.
       WHY is this not logical, or truth based? BECAUSE the flowering
       plants arrived at the SAME TIME in the fossil record as the
       insects that feed on them AND pollinate them. If fecundity had
       anything to do with natural selection or any other
       "evolutionary" species modifying mechanism, we would have VERY
       DIFFERENT insects than the "modern" ones we have that are
       virtually UNCHANGED from the Triassic!
       So fecundity works when it is CONVENIENT to the theory of
       evolution and doesn't when they don't need to explain some
       "difficulty" in their procrustean bed?
  HTML http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-026.gif<br
       />I don't think so.
       After that package of pseudo-scientific assumptions above, they
       go ALL OUT into speculation to make a giant assumption,
       "It appears  ;D that rapid radiations and the appearance [img
       width=30
       height=40]
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185047.png[/img]<br
       />of new species,...".
       Let's correct that statement to state the FACTS,  "It appears
       that [s]rapid radiations and[/s] the rapid simultaneous
       appearance of new species depending for their existence on
       multiple symbiotic mechanisms cannot be explained by natural
       selection".
  HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/301.gif
       Finally, they make the final leap of Darwinian faith to the
       present despite not having ANY significant change in insects
       morphology since the Triassic to indicate "evolution" is in
       progress,
       "a process that continues to this day, result in insects filling
       all available environmental niches."
  HTML http://www.coh2.org/images/Smileys/huhsign.gif
       Let's correct that last bit of wishful thinking to reflect the
       facts on the ground: It appears  that  the rapid simultaneous
       appearance of new species depending for their existence on
       multiple symbiotic mechanisms cannot be explained by natural
       selection, indicating a (still unexplained) process occurred in
       the Triassic period that resulted in insects filling all
       available environmental niches of the present biosphere.
       The symbiotic angiosperm/insect relationship is not rapidly
       adapting to the present level of planetary industrial toxins.
       Therefore, whatever the unexplained rapid adaptation mechanism
       that occurred in the Triassic Period was, there is no evidence
       that it is present today because we are experiencing a high
       level of species extinctions affecting, but not limited to,
       insects and angiosperms.
       THAT is honest science.
       I would proceed from my observation that mosquitoes and
       centipedes and angiosperms appeared simultaneously to find out
       when WE appeared. I would need a clock. I would start with
       Carbon-14 (up to 100,000 years accurately IF the carbon
       radioactive decay clock hasn't changed over that period but I
       would start with it just the same). WHY? Because we have items
       with organic carbon that we KNOW the date of like Egyptian
       mummies that we can crosscheck for accuracy.
       Crude oil, for example contains NO carbon-14, indicating that,
       since the plant life form that became that oil decayed, all the
       C-14 has radiated out. That means crude oil is technically older
       than 100,000 years.
       I would proceed to more higher scale dating methods only if I
       couldn't get C-14 data.
       THEN, with some ball park figures and some skulls from MONKEYS,
       not apes, I would start looking at DNA sequences.
       Only after I was convinced our closest relative was not the one
       that looks most like us (monkeys, not chimps or apes) would I
       dig further. During that time I would study the tendon bone
       attachments, anatomy and physiology of hominid skulls. I would
       go where the data took me.
       Yes, I have a working hypothesis that we are a package DNA deal
       (created by God) and I would certainly want to find proof. But
       it is far more logical to start with that hypothesis than the
       Darwinian one  because evolution doesn't have proof of their
       most basic premise! (the self assembling amino acids for the
       first cell).
       Furthermore, I have fossil evidence that millions of species
       popped up out of nowhere in more than one strata. I think I'm
       being more scientific and empirical than the Darwinists "it's
       all a crap shoot" arrogance, don't you? [img width=30
       height=30]
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185701.png[/img]
       #Post#: 371--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Darwin
       By: guest10 Date: November 17, 2013, 8:14 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       AG, that was a very well-articulated and comprehensive breakdown
       of the flawed evolutionary paradigm!
       I would suggest you submit it for publication at DD and
       elsewhere if possible.
       Another obvious problem with Darwinain evolution is that it
       cannot explain the origin of mind/consciousness from mindless
       matter and energy. Likewise, it cannot relate mental
       similarities with physical similarities between species, even
       though that relation MUST exist if its materialist premises are
       to hold up.
       #Post#: 384--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Darwin
       By: Surly1 Date: November 18, 2013, 6:02 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I would say that this--
       [quote]Finally, they make the final leap of Darwinian faith to
       the present despite not having ANY significant change in insects
       morphology since the Triassic to indicate "evolution" is in
       progress,
       "a process that continues to this day, result in insects filling
       all available environmental niches."
       Let's correct that last bit of wishful thinking to reflect the
       facts on the ground: It appears  that  the rapid simultaneous
       appearance of new species depending for their existence on
       multiple symbiotic mechanisms cannot be explained by natural
       selection, indicating a (still unexplained) process occurred in
       the Triassic period that resulted in insects filling all
       available environmental niches of the present biosphere.
       [/quote]
       Is the moral equivalent of resolving a cpmplex narrative by
       writing, "...and then they all got hit by a truck." Takes care
       of your complex plot issues, but ultimately unsatisfying.
       So there are holes in evolutionary theory. So what?
       IMO, there really important issues that face us in preserving
       God's creation have to do with embracing alternative fuels and
       putting the fossil fuelers out of business, a business that will
       long outlive either of us.
       #Post#: 386--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Darwin
       By: guest2 Date: November 18, 2013, 6:31 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=ashvin link=topic=18.msg339#msg339
       date=1384524703]
       Carl Sagan, perhaps the most popular champion of Darwinian
       evolution, more recently promoted the "recapitulation theory" of
       embryonic development which most scientists agree is totally
       false. Not only is this theory inherently racist, it also serves
       as a major catalyst of justifying early-term abortions.
       [/quote]
       Really?  Carl Sagan recently promoted that?  Well, if that's the
       really the case, then I'm definitely going to believe it...  ;)
       Carl Sagan
       Astronomer
       Carl Edward Sagan was an American astronomer, astrophysicist,
       cosmologist, author, science popularizer and science
       communicator in astronomy and natural sciences. Wikipedia
       Born: November 9, 1934, Brooklyn, NY
       Died: December 20, 1996, Seattle, WA
       #Post#: 396--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Darwin
       By: guest10 Date: November 19, 2013, 7:42 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote=jdwheeler]Really?  Carl Sagan recently promoted
       that?[/quote]
       The key word you left out is "more", as in much more recently
       than Darwin's racist analysis. I believe it was in a 1990 paper.
       The point is, Darwin's flawed ideas continue to have severe
       consequences, even in our supposedly post-eugenics societies.
       #Post#: 399--------------------------------------------------
       Here's a recent scientific paper on facial reconstruction 
       By: AGelbert Date: November 19, 2013, 3:01 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Great Comments!
       Surly, as Ashvin stated, the consequences of a flawed
       evolutionary paradigm are severly deleterious to rational  and
       logical thinking in modern society. Your "So what?" question
       fails to connect the negative consequences of a predatory
       capitalist, rampant planetary exploition with the Darwinian
       concept of a mad scramble for resources by amino acids self
       assembling in a totally random manner resulting in the giant
       truck that running us over now.  ;D It's MIGHTY convenient for
       the conscience free psychos that fathered GAME THEORY (a twisted
       view of interrelationships between sentient beings justifying
       any and all heinous and barbaric behavior in the quest for who
       gets the most toys "caloric intake, etc") to have DARWIN around
       to make everything jes' natural behavior. The evolutionary
       paradigm DID include cooperation as FAR more important than
       predation in the perpetuation of a species BUT the psychos
       quickly underplayed that so their planet trashing could have
       "scientific" backing.
       Think about it, Surly. Darwin--> Wall Street "scientific" fig
       leaf hijacking-->Freud-->Game Theory, a PARADIGM DESIGNED
       REPLACE the GOLDEN RULE as the most rational and species
       perpetuating behavior (the "fittest") is PRECISELY WHAT IS
       BEHIND the LACK OF GUILT by the 1% for TRASHING THE PLANET!
       Altruism, cooperation, sustainability, holistic view of every
       process to see it value in the biosphere from the birth of new
       life to the decay of dead matter NESESSARY for that future new
       life is ABSENT from the modern paradigmatic view of SUCCESS.
       It's SUICIDAL and CRIMINALLY INSANE.
       But they won't let it go because, because... THEY KNOW it will
       lead to GUILT, LIABILITY and an END to the con games denying
       reality. Love thy Neighbor as Thyself is not optional in the
       biosphere. THIS is the "WHAT" of the "So what?" question you
       asked.
       Think about it.
       Ashvin,
       I have to develop this thread a little more before I try to
       publish some article or series of them that explains the harm
       this flawed evolutionary paradigm is doing to Homo Sap. I. as
       you do, am trying to proceed on intellect without any appeal to
       faith on the reader because most evolution true believers take
       off running when they smell a theist, never mind a fundy! I have
       to unpack evolutionary arguments using accepted wisdom in
       scientific articles written by evolutionists themselves to
       demonstrate the flawed logic and premises. It's a mine field but
       I have already hit some pay dirt in four areas of science that
       is actually pseudo science.
       Here's one of them:
       Forensic facial reconstruction is used by police departments to
       try to identify what a person looked like when only the skeletal
       remains are available. However, because the skull is a human
       skull of a recently deceased person, it works okay for the
       police. However, it DOESN'T work AT ALL for the anthropologist
       digging up hominid skulls and having a facial reconstruction
       done.
       Here's a recent scientific paper on facial reconstruction. These
       scientists wrote a 3D program to reconstruct a face on a skull.
       They used a human cadaver skull. They had the actual face of the
       deceased person and made a mold of it to use for comparison with
       whatever their computer program produced. It's a fairly
       comprehensive document.
       [img width=640
       height=480]
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-191113154257.png[/img]
       Here's the money quote:
       in fact, facial reconstruction is not easy, because there are
       many facial variations. particularly according to the
       nutritional status of the individual and different rates and
       intensities of aging. Furthermore, the nose, eye, ear, lips, and
       chin probably cannot be constructed exactly from skull
       characteristics.
  HTML http://www.lirmm.fr/~subsol/JFS.0797.pdf
       
       Think about that. This is a HUMAN SKULL. There is NO DOUBT of
       it. Now where in the blue blazes do the anthropologists in
       cooperation with artists and facial reconstruction experts get
       the NOSE, the LIPS ( EARS ARE covered with hair as a clever
       pseudo scientific admission that they don't know what the ears
       look like but WHY THE HAIR? Look at an ape or monkey! You SEE
       the ears! Why can't these people say "WE DON'T KNOW what the
       ears looked like."? Why the subterfuge if not to always try to
       look like they know it all? - ARROGANT, aren't they?) and the
       CHIN  (don't forget all that hair!) of, for example, a
       Neanderthal skull, HUH???
       [img width=640
       height=480]
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-191113154201.jpeg[/img]
       I smell an evolutionist agenda RAT!  >:(
       As you see, I am in to some deep stuff. It requires a lot of
       reading and logical thinking. PLUS, it requires the
       understanding that there are gate keepers defending the
       evolutionary paradigm that DON'T want knowledge like that above
       to get out. It wouldn't look good for anthropologists/hominid
       archeologists and certain imaginative artists they employ.[img
       width=30
       height=40]
  HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185047.png[/img]<br
       />
       That article I just quoted is an example of tightly held
       knowledge. WHY? Go ahead and try to copy and paste from the PDF
       onto a post or a document and you will get gibberish. I'm sure
       it's just a coincidence and they are just trying to make sure
       someone doesn't copy their work...[img width=50
       height=50]
  HTML http://www.imgion.com/images/01/Angry-animated-smiley.jpg[/img]<br
       />
       But, REALLY, you fellows out there that copy and paste often
       from PDFs, how often do you run into this encrypting? I've run
       into it before but very seldom.
       At any rate, you can see that the public is certainly NOT being
       told the truth about how much evolutionist wishful thinking is
       being used in these facial reconstructions.
       And PLEASE, feel free to copy and paste ANYTHING I publish here
       with or without attribution. Just make sure you provide the same
       scientific references I provide to keep the naysayers at bay,
       ;)
       #Post#: 476--------------------------------------------------
       14 Billion Years: Not enough time for Single Celled Life by Rand
       om Mutations.
       By: AGelbert Date: November 30, 2013, 2:01 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Expert mathematicians running probability and statistics for
       self assembling amino acids into all the proteins needed for
       life in a SINGLE CELLED ORGANISM have stated that there hasn't
       been enough time if the universe is 14 billion years old or so
       for that to occur randomly.
       They claim life is IMPOSSIBLE by random chance mutations in that
       time frame.
       Evolution is great science fiction but it lacks any evidence
       whatsoever. I don't know how all this happened but so-called
       "evolution" certainly is not the explanation.
       [quote]... information theorist Hubert Yockey (UC Berkeley)
       realized this problem:
       "The origin of life by chance in a primeval soup is impossible
       in probability in the same way that a perpetual machine is in
       probability. The extremely small probabilities calculated in
       this chapter are not discouraging to true believers … [however]
       A practical person must conclude that life didn’t happen by
       chance."43
       Note that in his calculations, Yockey generously granted that
       the raw materials were available in a primeval soup.[I] But in
       the previous chapter of his book,[/I] Yockey showed that a
       primeval soup could never have existed, so belief in it is an
       act of ‘faith’. He later concluded, "the primeval soup paradigm
       is self-deception based on the ideology of its champions."44
       More admissions
       Note that Yockey is not the only high-profile academic to speak
       plainly on this issue:
       "Anyone who tells you that he or she knows how life started on
       earth some 3.4 billion years ago is a fool or a knave. Nobody
       knows."—Professor Stuart Kauffman, origin of life researcher,
       University of Calgary, Canada.45
       "…we must concede that there are presently [I]no detailed
       Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or
       cellular system,[/I] only a variety of wishful speculations."
       —Franklin M. Harold, Emeritus Professor of Biochemistry and
       Molecular Biology Colorado State University.46
       "Nobody knows how a mixture of lifeless chemicals spontaneously
       organized themselves into the first living cell."—Professor Paul
       Davies, then at Macquarie University, Sydney, Australia.47
       "The novelty and complexity of the cell is so far beyond
       anything inanimate in the world today that we are left baffled
       by how it was achieved."— Kirschner, M.W. (professor and chair,
       department of systems biology, Harvard Medical School, USA.),
       and Gerhart, J.C. (professor in the Graduate School, University
       of California, USA).48
       [I]"Conclusion:[/I] The scientific problem of the origin of life
       can be characterized as the problem of finding the chemical
       mechanism that led all the way from the inception of the first
       autocatalytic reproduction cycle to the last common ancestor.
       All present theories fall far short of this task. While we still
       do not understand this mechanism, we now have a grasp of the
       magnitude[/I] of the problem."49
       ]"The biggest gap in evolutionary theory remains the origin of
       life itself… the gap between such a collection of molecules
       [amino acids and RNA] and even the most primitive cell remains
       enormous."—Chris Wills, professor of biology at the University
       of California, USA.50
       Even the doctrinaire materialist Richard Dawkins admitted to Ben
       Stein (Expelled, the movie documentary) that no one knows how
       life began:
       Richard Dawkins: "We know the sort of event that must have
       happened for the origin of life—it was the origin of the first
       self-replicating molecule."
       Ben Stein: "How did that happen?"
       Richard Dawkins: "I’ve told you, we don’t know."
       Ben Stein: "So you have no idea how it started?"
       Richard Dawkins: "No, nor has anybody."51
       "We will never know how life first appeared. However, the study
       of the appearance of life is a mature, well-established field of
       scientific inquiry. As in other areas of evolutionary biology,
       answers to questions on the origin and nature of the first life
       forms can only be regarded as inquiring and explanatory rather
       than definitive and conclusive."52 (emphasis added)[/b][/quote]
       Click below for full article and scholarly references:
       [url=
  HTML http://creation.com/origin-of-life][i]The
       Origin of Life
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       [move]True Believer Modern Sophisticated Evolutionists aren't
       going to take that low down attack on their Faith (whoops, I
       mean "scientifically proven, proven and super proven"
  HTML http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-026.gifTHEORY<br
       />- So there you crazy fundies!
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       laying
       down. High and mighty Evolutionists
       REACT--->
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       />
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       BUT AFTER A WHILE,
       they get more active  ;)
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       What about the
       crusades and the inquisition?       What about the price of
       peaches in Denmark?            What are you, some kind of fundy
       nut?                 Whadaya mean, you never said anything about
       God or religion?                 Your probability math HAS to be
       wrong because DARWIN said so!
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       We are EVOLVED, WE
       are ADVANCED, WE are THE
       GREATEST!
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       And, what's
       more, WE are GOD! Yippee! Darwin and Freud freed us from silly
       guilt trips and showed us it's EVOLUTIONARILY ADVANCED to be the
       APEX PREDATOR and do any damned thing we want so we don't suffer
       needless neurosis.
  HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/fly.gif<br
       />Besides, the alternative is UNTHINKABLE.    What?!! Of course 
       we
       respect empirical evidence and the science of probability and
       statistics! Whadaya take us for, a faith based Fundy? Of course
       it doesn't matter that there doesn't SEEM to be empirical
       evidence of evolution! They just haven't published it and you
       are wrong ,wrong, wrong! How can you have such a rigid mind? You
       fundies are all alike. You refuse to question your beliefs even
       if science conclusively proves otherwise...  [img width=140
       height=080]
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       />[img width=40
       height=40]
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       /> [img width=50
       height=50]
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       /> [/move]
       Agelbert awaits the futile, circular, self destructive,
       illogical, and dogmatic rebuttal fusilade.
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       [img
       width=30
       height=40]
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       />
       #Post#: 581--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Darwin
       By: AGelbert Date: December 18, 2013, 8:28 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [move]From a "discussion"  ;D at the Doomstead Diner about
       Evolution and the claim that cheationists are "magical
       thinkers". [/move]
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       Eddie,
       You are on a ROLL, today. Yahoo! If I didn't know you were from
       Texas, I would know now! [img width=30
       height=40]
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       />Thank you for your enjoyment of my Renewable energy support.
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       Of course I am prone to a bit of sermonizing and vitriol now and
       then.  ;D
       It goes with territory. Eddie, I have been THERE with college
       professors and health care professionals for the last 30 years
       or so on the intolerance, disdain, disparagement and continuous
       smirks about being ignorant and a magical thinker.
       For nearly 8 months you have consistently weighed on the issue
       of Christians in particular and believers in God in general
       maintaining repeatedly that they are magical thinkers as if you
       are discussing root canals or some other truth of your
       experience and profession.
       Every time you do that, you are moving into religious territory
       and defending your world view. It should NOT bother you that we
       challenge it. But every time you talk about believers in God and
       scoffers of evolution like they are idiots, you are opening
       yourself up to debate.
       If you don't want to talk religion, that's cool. Don't say we
       are magical thinkers. Every time you do, I will challenge you.
       Do you think I have no clue where you are at? You live in Texas!
       You married someone who's father was a preacher, right? I know
       how intolerable and stuffed shirty those people can be. I know
       how pompous and rigid they can be too. Hypocrisy is rife in
       Evangelical Christianity. But they don't have a fucking
       franchise on magical thinking and hypocrisy. When they get
       legalistic about 6 day creation or the Sabbath or whatever, they
       are justifying such wishful thinking with magical thinking that
       Moses was God's stenographer. But to group people who believe
       God created us with judgmental legalists is wrong, offensive,
       objectionable and unscientific. I do admit it's easier to group
       us all together as whackos not worthy serious consideration.
       I have argued against evolution while I believed it was the way
       things happened since 1985 because my profs could not answer my
       questions about it logically.
       I read a lot of science articles and the word "evolution" is
       like flies on shit for them. They just cannot write without
       using that word. I've got one about E. Coli "evolving" for the
       few years through thousands of generations in closed containers
       by varying nutritional content (the latest buzzword in
       evolutionary circles because they are in the process of shit
       canning natural selection in favor of caloric forced gene
       expression - more fairy tales  ::)).
       The E. Coli is STILL, low and behold, E. Coli but one group
       metabolizes sugars at a few percentage points (about 3%) faster
       than the other so that is EVOLUTION!  Give me a fucking break
       here! The term ADAPTATION has been captured by the
       evolutionists. Adaptation is gene expression to environmental
       conditions from a pre-existing package. That is NOT EVOLUTION.
       WE intelligently designed E. Coli to make insulin by putting
       some plasmids into it but in millions of years it didn't do it
       on its own, did it?
       Remember those coin flipping exercises in genetics? You know
       that it takes a LONG time to get students to obtain 9 tails and
       one head or vice versa by each person flipping one coin ten
       times. Now to get protein folded amino acids just right
       (assuming you HAVE all the amino acids you need all present) you
       need SEQUENTIAL 9 to one "mutations" (gross simplification but
       you get the idea). You need thousands of SEQUENTIAL (as in one
       after the other with NO GAPS) 9 to one mutations for that first
       cell. So if it takes one million years of primeval soup amino
       acid random folding to get ONE key protein, you need to go
       FACTORIAL (million times a million times a million, etc.) to get
       ALL the protein sequences needed for life.
       There isn't enough time in a 14 billion year universe for that.
       Remember all that stuff about vaccines and evolution? Remember
       how the cocci this or the bacilli that will "EVOLVE" antibiotic
       resistance? Hello? They are STILL cocci this or bacillus that,
       are they not? They didn't become E. Coli. There was adaptation,
       not evolution.
       But they DID get some foreign genetic material so that must be
       evolution, right? WRONG. The "evolutionary advantage" that
       allowed them to become more virulent did not change their
       species. They adapted BECAUSE their DNA package allowed a
       plasmid for antibiotic resistance to be incorporated as part of
       its original design. The process by which Streptococcus
       pneumonia  metabolizes sugars and reproduces DID NOT CHANGE. It
       is STILL  Streptococcus pneumonia. But we were TAUGHT that was
       EVIDENCE of EVOLUTION. NOT!
       What we did to E. Coli for insulin production is crude. It's
       still E. Coli even though we altered its metabolism. Ther comes
       a point in messing with bacterial DNA when the changes are
       rejected and it dies because every life form has programming to
       prevent becoming whatever it ISN'T. Nature breeds TRUE. DNA
       edits fastidiously to AVOID change. You know this.
       Natural DE-selection works to cull species but natural selection
       has never produced an ORIGIN OF SPECIES as Darwin postulated.
       If Darwin had seen this short video, he would NEVER have tried
       to push the theory of evolution. Evolution is story telling
       magical thinking. If you don't agree, show me some proof that it
       is occurring. Instead of "change is constant in the natural
       wordl" meme we had hammered into us by evolutionary thinking,
       science has discovered that the DNA inside cells fight change
       continuously through very sophisticated editing.
  HTML http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY0hZLDOb00&feature=player_embedded<br
       />
       HOW can ANYBODY believe the above happened RANDOMLY?
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