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#Post#: 6986--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: April 28, 2017, 1:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Eddie link=topic=9447.msg130413#msg130413
date=1493345701]
I've got one for you. Let me lay a little groundwork first.
I first went sailing with some friends when I was in college. I
grew up around ski boats and fishing boats, the kind working
class people used to be able to afford when I was young , but
coming from rural East Texas, I was not exposed to sailing at
all as a kid. That was something rich people did. I never even
thought much about it. But once I tried it, I was hooked for
life. However, for four long years of dental school, I was nose
to the grindstone. I didn't even have the time to read a book
for pleasure. Dental school is roughly equivalent to carrying
about a 25 hour load as an undergrad. I was at school every
weekday from 7:30 am until midnight most nights, when they made
us leave and go home whether we wanted to or not. Four years,
with a month off for summers. I worked as a research assistant
during the summer breaks. I needed the money.
When I got out of school in San Antonio and moved to Houston to
start my residency in pediatrics, I scrimped together enough
money to spend maybe a thousand bucks on a very neglected but
very worthy old Flying Scot, a 20 ft daysailor with a big swing
keel with a windlass. I didn't even know where to go to put it
in the water. I asked someone, and they said people sailed on
Offut's Bayou in Galveston. I proceeded to hook up the trailer
to my 1976 Toyota Corolla Wagon (1600cc's, 5 speed manual
transmission, roughly half the size of the boat) and headed down
there to check it out.
Fortunately, the freeway on to Galveston Island crosses Offut's
Bayou, so I found it without much trouble. I backed down the
public ramp and launched my vessel. I was pretty busy between
the hospital and two part-time side jobs, but I found time a
couple of times a month to drive down there and begin to figure
out how to sail a boat. By the time I was out, two years later,
I at least knew a tack from a jibe, and enough not to get blown
on to a lee shore. There was a lot more about sailing I didn't
know, far more than I did know. But when we moved to Austin i
pulled the Scot down (now behind my new Ford Bronco II, the
worst car I ever owned...but that's another story).
When we had moved to Houston, my two oldest girls were ages 2
1/2 and 6 months. Near the Med Center there was a fairly famous
infant swimming school, the Phil Hansell Academy. Remember that
article from Life Magazine in the 1960's that documented how
children younger than a year could be taught to float and even
swim? Phil Hansell (one time swim coach for University of
Houston) got in on that early wave, and started such a training
center. By the time we came to town, it had been in business
over 20 years, and it's still there now. The teachers there have
taught thousands of babies how to float on their backs fully
clothed, with a soaked diaper. The kids don't graduate until
they can do that.
[img]
HTML https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwuCMf8scIsXYbuJ5fDFwly2S1X4LviwUQl3SmOrdM8sfIKOx9[/img]
A Typical Infant Swimmer (after 3-6 months of training)
On the wall at Phil Hansell are displayed many letters, photos,
and anecdotes from parents whose children's lives were
subsequently saved in various water accidents as a result of
their training, even one involving a toddler who fell through an
open manhole and floated far below street level in a storm sewer
for half an hour until the fire department could get a man down.
Expecting a corpse, they were surprised to find a floating kid
who wasn't even that upset.
My wife wanted to put our girls in swimming lessons, and so we
did. We lived in some student apartments owned by the University
of Texas, which had an Olympic pool. Very soon my kids were
known around the complex as swimming prodigies, and the late Dr.
Red Duke (trauma surgeon turned TV personality) who had a
regular spot on the nightly evening news, even sent out a camera
crew to video my kids, and they were on TV one night, for maybe
30 seconds. LOL. Frequently, people who didn't know they were
completely water safe, would jump into the pool and try to
rescue them, or just walk up and give us a ration of **** about
not watching our kids around the pool. It was a great joke for
me and my wife.
Fast forward to the summer of '87. We moved to Austin, and I
started asking again about where to put in a sailboat on Lake
Travis. My wife's brother allowed as he had seen people sailing
at a place called Windy Point, so once again, I hitched up the
trailer and went to check it out.
There are no coincidences.
Now, today, Windy Point would be the last place I'd go to launch
a sailboat on Lake Travis. Very shallow water, no boat ramp. I
had to back way out into the water in my car to try to launch,
and it still wasn't easy. A guy about ten years older than us
offered to help us launch. He'd been sailing a borrowed Sunfish,
but had just broken his rudder. He helped me launch the Scot,
and bummed a ride. Turned out he was a single Dad who lived
right in our neighborhood and had a son right between my kids in
age. We would go on to become best friends and sailing buddies
(on a long string of boats) for decades. He was already an
experienced sailor, but not on small boats.
We spent the whole summer sailing our asses off, kids along,
often all three kids and me, my wife and our new friend Terry.
[img]
HTML https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSf_6VetoT1whAbAg4ZWuD7U18MbHjgg_uD9AZ3J5cXB3HWvMfgFA[/img]
A Flying Scot Under Full Sail
In Texas it isn't always obvious when summer ends. We went out
one fine Sunday, the first weekend in November, 1987. The
weather was glorious, the water still fairly tolerable for
swimming, and the wind was blowing a steady 10-15 knots. By this
time we were feeling pretty good about our expertise, and we
"put the rail in the water" as they say, and spent a great
afternoon sailing across the main basin in Lake Travis. Now, one
thing you should know, is that lake sailing can be tricky.
Unlike the bay, the wind is constantly changing direction and
speed, and promontories of land can put you out of the wind
completely. Eventually, Terry and I would know that lake like
the back of our hands, but we were still newbies then.
We had already named the main basin "The Vortex" because of the
weird wind effects there. One side of the lake is lined with
high cliffs. At the top is a huge destination restaurant and bar
called The Oasis, which bills itself as "The Sunset Capital of
Texas". The wind along the cliffs creates whirls and eddies and
you can never tell exactly what you might get hit with next.
We stayed out until very few other boats were still on the lake.
The wind started to rise a bit, but we didn't pay that much
attention. We had put away a few beers, and we were having fun.
Terry was at the helm...if you can call lying on your back with
one hand on the rudder and the other holding the mainsheet "at
the helm".
Then, suddenly, it all went very wrong. A big gust, and we
heeled way over. Terry let go the main and I let go the jib. but
the mainsheet (the line that lets the mainsail release, thereby
de-powering the sail and preventing a capsize), got caught under
someone's foot. In one long second, we got knocked down. We were
in the drink. Me, Terry, my wife, and my two girls. His kid was
not there. Mom's weekend.
The Scot has a somewhat unique rig. The main halyard (the line
that raises and drops the main sail) is not a rope. It's a
cable, and it works by turning a tiny little ratcheting winch in
a box affixed to the mast. To drop the main, you need the winch
handle. The winch handle was gone. As we went over, my oldest
girl grabbed the boom, and I had to pry her strong little hands
off of it to keep her from being dragged under as the boat
proceeded to turtle,
The kids had on life jackets. The rest of us grabbed one and put
it on. Nobody was hurt. Everyone was fine.
Except...the sun was going down and the water was getting
colder. There wasn't a single boat in sight. Terry and I finally
stood on the centerboard together and stood the boat back up.
But it was too full of water to bail, and the wet main, still
up, was making the boat unstable. It could turtle again anytime.
We were already getting exhausted.
[img
width=640]
HTML http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/66466085_1280x720.jpg[/img]
A Swamped Scot
Within a few minutes, I knew we were in real trouble. I was
cold, but the kids were really cold, teeth chattering cold. Blue
skin cold. They wouldn't last an hour. No way. The sun set and
we were way too far from shore to swim in. It started to get
dark.
Just about the time I was coming to the realization that my kids
were in danger of dying of exposure, a small cabin sailboat,
sails furled, motored up under the power of a tiny outboard.
They took my wife and kids onboard and dried them off. We didn't
want to abandon our boat. It was too unstable to tow, though.
So....Terry and I stayed onboard and sat on opposite sides on
the gunwales and kept the wobbling boat upright, while they
towed us to shore, which took about an hour. Their tiny motor
strained just to pull the Scot with its cockpit full of water
and its flapping main sail.
It was nearly 10pm before we were able to secure our boat to
some rocks near the put-in, where we left it for the night,
still full of water. We would return the next day to bail it and
put in back on the trailer.
[img
width=640]
HTML https://txwinelover.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/oasis-from-oake.jpg[/img]
The actual site of our accident. The shore is not nearly as
close at it looks.
I was colder than I ever remember being. Our rescuers gave me
some dry sweats and towels, and I stripped off my wet t-shirt
and shorts and put them on, but my teeth kept chattering for a
half hour and I didn't get warm for hours. Not until I was home
in bed. We quickly thanked our rescuers and they motored off. My
wife drove us home, because neither Terry nor I was was able to
drive.
About ten years later, my wife was attending an adult bible
class here at Riverbend Church one Sunday. The teacher asked
everyone in the class to recount some experience they'd had that
had made a real impact on them. The people in the class took
turns telling about things that had happened to them.
One woman started to tell a story about a day when her family
had been at the lake, motoring in at dusk, when they came upon a
derelict sailboat and some people with little kids stranded in
the middle of the lake....and how they pulled them out of the
water and saved their lives. As the story progressed, my wife
suddenly realized she was talking about rescuing us! So she
finally had the chance to thank them properly.
I'm sure they'll never forget what they did for us. Neither will
I. What would have happened if they hadn't stopped to help us?
I'm not sure. But the outcome might have been very tragic. I
learned a lesson that day about sailing. A hard lesson I'll
never forget.
[/quote]
[move]EXCELLENT! Thank you, Eddie!
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/19.gif[/move]
#Post#: 6990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: April 29, 2017, 3:38 pm
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[quote author=Eddie link=topic=9447.msg130453#msg130453
date=1493408711]
Thanks AG.
[/quote]
You are most welcome. I am convinced there was a significant bit
of spiritual intercession that day/night.
HTML http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1726/1726203ha2mjbxeje.gif
[quote author=RE link=topic=9447.msg130457#msg130457
date=1493414557]
[center][img
width=640]
HTML http://hawrivercanoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/HRCK-web_LAP3643-e1362334221328-1024x511.jpg[/img][/center]
In terms of boating insanity, one of my best anecdotes is a
canoe trip I took with a friend to Verendrye Provincial Park in
the Great White North.
I had been there before as a Camper in the Primitive Skills camp
I attended as a teenager, so I was the "expert" on this trip.
On the trip with the camp, there were experienced counselors who
knew the route, they took it every year. It covered 3 lakes
with 2 portages that were not too long, one maybe a 1/4 mile,
the other maybe a 1/2 mile.
I wanted to see all the parts of the park we missed on that
trip! There are dozens of lakes, along with
rivers/streams/creeks between them.
So first thing was to order a topographical map of the park to
plan the trip. There was no internet and no Google Earth in
those days. We budgeted 2 weeks for this trip after finals in
May. I picked out what looked like a really cool route on the
map of 6 lakes with 3 portages and 2 river connections, which I
figured probably had some rapids because there was a significant
elevation change between the lakes. Figured we could handle it
though, being a couple of macho 20 year old guys. lol.
So we drive to Canada and first thing is to rent the canoe from
an outfitter and give him our launch point and destination for
pickup later, along with the estimated date of arrival. No cell
phones in those days either, so if you missed your pickup time,
this was not good. You had to then hitch a ride to the nearest
pay phone and get them to come back for you, and pay an
additional fee for that.
So OK, I give our route and dates to the guy renting the canoes
and he looks at me suspiciously. In a really thick Hoser
accent, he asks me:
"So you have canoed here in Verendrye before?"
"Oh yes, I respond."
"You are sure you can make this route in 2 weeks?" he asks.
"Oh sure." I respond.
"OK, I rent you the canoe. $300 deposit."
"$300? Your sign says $100."
"That is for lake trips only. Not down the rivers."
This of course should have clued me in, but we drove all that
way and I didn't want to just paddle around lakes and hoist a
canoe on my back on portages, I wanted White Water ADVENTURE!
:o
The canoe is a big old cheap aluminum model, not anything real
nice and also costs I think it was $100/week rental fee.
Fortunately we carried a lot of spare cash, since there were no
digibit cards then and neither of us had credit cards yet. The
$500 outlay did not leave us much left over though, probably not
enough for gas to get back to NYC. I figured I could wire my
mom for more money though to get home.
So he loads the canoe on the trailer and drops us off at Lake 1.
First day is just beautiful, it's about 80F in May in Canada,
and this like never happened back in those days. We paddle
across the Lake and make camp, for a portage the next morning to
do Lake 2. Fabulous meal of 2 fresh steaks packed in ice and
wrapped in a makeshift cooler of towels and (clean) underwear,
along with rice and canned beans. Rest of the trip was all
Freeze Dried food of the era, which amounted to Chicken ala
King, Spaghetti with Meat Sauce and "chinese" Pepper Steak. We
smoked a doobie and hit the sack.
Next morning, instant oatmeal for breakfast and we do the
portage, first carrying the backpacks along the trail, then
going back for the canoe. Temperature is still climbing, now
approaching 90 on day 2, still in the morning. Work up a nice
sweat. Launch point? On the map it looked like part of a Lake,
in REALITY it was SWAMP attached to the lake! Mosquitos come
out as we begin to paddle through the reeds. Not a few
mosquitos, the air is BLACK with them. Out of desperation we
jump out of the canoe and into the water, walking/swimming the
canoe along from underwater and coming up for quick gulps of
air, filled with mosquitos. I takes an hour or so to make it
throuh the swamp and into open water. Mosquitos finally peter
out. We are both bitten up and itchy, but splash the clear cool
water on which relieves the itch and we paddle across the lake.
I fill up my canteen with water in the middle of the lake, and
drink from it with no boiling, no purification tablets. Water
still pretty clean in those years.
The other side of this lake is the first River connection. We
stop here for 2 days of rest and relaxation, do some fishing and
catch some, so we have more fresh food here to go with the
freeze dried stuff. Mosquito itching subsides, and we walk the
river bank to scope it out, spying where the rocks are and good
channels to try and go through. It doesn't look too bad, so
that even though it's an open canoe, we elect to try it with our
gear in the canoe, rather than walk it with gear first, then go
back for an empty canoe ride. This was a mistake.
We did in fact make the whole ride without capsizing, although
we did not hit all the channels we had planned to. By the time
we were halfway down the river, we had shipped about half the
canoe full of water. Our packs were stewing in this, and the
canoe itself was wallowing deep in the water and hitting every
rock on the ricer bed. SCRAPE, SCRAPE, DENT, DENT. Scrapes and
dents were a minimum of $10/inch off your deposit money on the
canoe for repairs. All our gear was SOAKED. It took a day to
get everything dried out.
On the second portage my friend sprained his ankle. Not really
bad, but enough we had to wait 2 days to get rolling again,
because the canoe was just too heavy for me to portage alone.
Now we were starting to run behind schedule. The second river
run was about the same as the first, although this time we were
smart enough to bring our packs down on foot first, then go back
for an empty canoe ride. We still hit more rocks though.
SCRAPE, SCRAPE, DENT, DENT!
We did make our pickup on time, paddling well into the night the
2 days before the meeting time. The Hoser who picked us up look
genuinely surprised we made it. He looked at the dented up
wreck of a canoe and laughed. Back at his shop, he gave us
estimate on repairs, $500. $200 more than the deposit! No got
the money. Drives me to a supply store with Western Union and I
wire mom for the money. Comes through, and we are free to drive
back to NYC.
For $500 then you could have bought a brand spanking new canoe
of this type, and he probably did that rather than repair it.
RE
[/quote]
Ouch! But hey, you came out okay so it was a good experience. As
we used to say in pilot training, any flight you can walk away
from is a good one. [img width=25
height=30]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-080515182559.png[/img]<br
/> ;D
#Post#: 7178--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: May 22, 2017, 7:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[center]Debate with a Monist 8) [/center]
The thread was about nihilism and eternalism. Ka, a type of
Buddhist Monist, claimed RE had engaged in Ad Hominem against
people like him by mocking nihilists by claiming nihilist views
are "fear" based.
I stepped in to try to insert some clarity into the discussion.
;D
[quote author=Ka link=topic=9596.msg131564#msg131564
date=1494809790]
[quote author=agelbert link=topic=9596.msg131557#msg131557
date=1494804250]
Ka,
why do you think being motivated by fear is a negative concept?
I agree that being motivated by GROUNDLESS fear is certainly to
be disdained, but LOGIC based fear (e.g. some thing, being or
event is to be feared because it has been conclusively proven to
be deleterious to your continued biochemical activity.), IMHO,
is, well, prudent, as well as logical.
[/quote]
Yes, but the question is, is eternalism true or not. To say that
eternalists are eternalists only out of fear does not say
anything about whether or not eternalism is true. Chapman
wouldn't have put that statement in there except to cast doubt
on eternalism. just as atheists bring up wish-fulfillment and
such to question theism. Even if it were true that all
eternalists are fearful of nihilism, that would not in itself
make eternalism false. Hence his statement is a logical fallacy.
And that kind of fallacy is called an ad hominem, because it
refers to the character of the eternalist, and not eternalism
itself.
[/quote]
Hmmmm. After all the polite debate between Ka and RE
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/3ztzsjm.gif,
I feel the need to
expose a fundamental intransigence on the party of the first,
second and third (etc. :icon_mrgreen:) parts in this eruption
of erudite debating activity.
So,
It appears that Ka has attempted to dance around the FACT that
it offends him for anyone to NOT question the validity of
externalism. ;D
RE is correct :o ;D that questioning Externalism to the point
of saying it is totally invalid, useless, counterproductive and
possibly destructive to human society (paraphrased ;)) is
certainly NOT Ad Hom to Ka, just because Ka thinks our plebian
perception of reality is some sort of illusion that we cause and
effect types are being fooled into believing. RE and I are on
different sides of the universe in regard to SPIRITUAL cause and
effect, but that's not relevant to this particular effort by da
godfader, so I won't get caught up in that bag of worms here.
RE gets it about the connection between reality and what is
external to us and what ain't. Ka not only doesn't get it, he is
pissed at anyone who says Ka doesn't get it.
A few years ago I went through excruciating detail explaining
the human sensory apparatus. The very ability of Ka to question
our assumed cause and effect "externalism" is impossible without
that sensory apparatus.
But Ka, even though he is a man I respect immensely, just don't
wanna go there.
So, as Comey would say:
[center][img
width=640]
HTML https://c1cleantechnicacom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/files/2017/05/Jim-Comey.jpg[/img][/center]
#Post#: 7179--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: May 22, 2017, 7:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=9596.msg131617#msg131617
date=1494873511]
[quote author=agelbert link=topic=9596.msg131614#msg131614
date=1494872589]RE and I are on different sides of the universe
in regard to SPIRITUAL cause and effect
[/quote]
I'll dispute that conclusion.
We're in entirely DIFFERENT Universes!
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp
RE
[/quote]
Yup.
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/155fs853955.gif
[quote author=Ka link=topic=9596.msg131648#msg131648
date=1494886954]
[quote author=agelbert link=topic=9596.msg131614#msg131614
date=1494872589]
So,
It appears that Ka has attempted to dance around the FACT that
it offends him for anyone to NOT question the validity of
e[size=12pt]xternalism. ;D [/size][/quote]
?? In this thread there has been no debate concerning the
validity of externalism. I did state my position on the matter
in my first post in this thread, but the only thing objected to
in that post was my use of the term "ad hominem". Since then,
that is all that RE and I have been debating. So I don't
understand how you get to "Ka has attempted to dance around the
FACT that it offends him for anyone to NOT question the validity
of externalism."
[quote]RE is correct :o ;D that questioning Externalism to the
point of saying it is totally invalid, useless,
counterproductive and possibly destructive to human society
(paraphrased ;)) is certainly NOT Ad Hom to Ka,[/quote]
I agree. It would not be an ad hom. Only he hasn't said anything
of that nature in this thread.
[quote]... just because Ka thinks our plebian perception of
reality is some sort of illusion that we cause and effect types
are being fooled into believing.[/quote]
[size=10pt]
Our perception is not an illusion. It is an inference we make
concerning the nature of what we perceive that I consider to be
false, namely that what we perceive exists on its own in the way
we perceive it. Just clarifying.
[/size][quote]
RE gets it about the connection between reality and what is
external to us and what ain't.[/quote]
Then how does he (or you) solve the interaction problem?
[quote] Ka not only doesn't get it, he is pissed at anyone who
says Ka doesn't get it. [/quote]
I'm just waiting to hear of a solution to the interaction
problem (not really, since I don't think there is a solution).
Anyway, I don't see how that counts as being "pissed" or not
"getting it".
[quote]A few years ago I went through excruciating detail
explaining the human sensory apparatus. The very ability of Ka
to question our assumed cause and effect "externalism" is
impossible without that sensory apparatus.[/quote]
I don't ever recall saying that we don't have a sensory
apparatus. Whether it does what you think it does, versus what I
think it does, is what we debated. And the answer to that cannot
be provided by the sensory apparatus alone, which just gets
perceptions. It is the concepts we add to those perceptions that
are in dispute.
[quote]But Ka, even though he is a man I respect immensely, just
don't wanna go there. [/quote]
Well, here I am, going there.
[/quote]
Ka,
Your vocabulary lends itself to some fascinating interpretations
of what "IS" is. THAT is why any debate with you ends up in a
hair splitting exercise. What you DO with words is, as RE has
pointed out repeatedly, move the definition goal posts around so
that you can say, uh, NO "I didn't say that" or "No, this thread
has no relevance to eXternalism", etc. FOLLOWED by your apparent
willingness to discuss an issue, that by your own words, is
rather fruitless to discuss (i.e. the interaction). ::)
Here's the deal, Ka. EVERYTHING about your outlook on what you
consider WHATEVER is impossible to argue against BECAUSE you DO
NOT REALLY BELIEVE (yeah - I know you'll claim that about you is
incorrect as well) WE are talking to each other here.
Sure, you can come up with all sorts of erudite labels with
"justification" for your claim that you believe we do have
sensory apparatus and that you do actually engage in debate with
other humans and recognize that we talk to each other, but it is
NOT SO, according to your concept of reality.
This then taints absolutely every subject on the issue (i.e.
cause and effect related) about integrating, analyzing and
taking appropriate action on, INFORMATION about the OUTSIDE
world that our sensory apparatus MUST have for us to remain as
viable homeostatic biological entities.
There is just NO WAY for you to look at your belief system and
seriously consider the possibility that you are a space cadet
living in a totally erroneous private world. The biosphere is
NOT accessible through a meditation chamber, and never will be,
IMHO. You have provided zero evidence that it is.
Furthermore, you may even claim that "looking for evidence" is
evidence ;) of an incorrect approach to "perceiving" the
biosphere or anything else. :laugh: It's kind of like saying
that jumping out of a window of a multistory building is not
dangerous; it's the concrete that kills you. And even that was a
mere perception of smacking the concrete.
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/ugly004.gif
When I question your ability to perceive without accepting the
fact that perceiving IS a sensory EVENT that INCLUDES
integrating outside information, you DANCE by saying the, uh,
"interaction is not explained".
I'll tell you what. When you agree that it is possible that you
are a space cadet and do not have a clue of what you speak, then
I will admit that SAME possibility is present in my worldview as
well. But until you, a separate and distinct entity from me, are
actually willing to GO THERE, you are fibbin' when you claim you
ARE willing to "go there" on the issue of eXternalism.
I challenge your claim that e[b]X[/b]ternalism is not related
to, or relevant to, this thread. It is. People who BELIEVE that
there is ZERO meaning in anything and everything they "do" OFTEN
end up committing suicide (e.g. Buddhists). THIS SENSELESS ACT
is born of nihilism. ANYONE that teaches others that there is
NOTHING because there is NO THING is nurturing a potential
nihilist who may end up committing suicide.
DON'T hair split with me about the importance of MEANING and
PURPOSE in human lives. Your worldview EXCLUDES BOTH MEANING AND
PURPOSE. But of, course, you will claim that you never said any
of that or represent any of that. Well, I think you do. And I
think you should take responsibility for telling people there is
NOTHING to FEAR out there because there is NO THING, or even an
"out there".
[center]The following is an example of REALITY of the planet
Earth, irrespective of anything we humans have THOUGHT since we
could THINK. There is NO WAY to dance around THAT REALITY (yes
you DO try to dance around it!).[/center]
[center][img
width=800]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-171015000317.png[/img][/center]
#Post#: 7180--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: May 22, 2017, 7:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ka link=topic=9596.msg131712#msg131712
date=1494964105]
[quote author=agelbert link=topic=9596.msg131655#msg131655
date=1494891595]
Your vocabulary lends itself to some fascinating interpretations
of what "IS" is. THAT is why any debate with you ends up in a
hair splitting exercise. What you DO with words is, as RE has
pointed out repeatedly, move the definition goal posts around so
that you can say, uh, NO "I didn't say that" or "No, this thread
has no relevance to eXternalism", etc. [/quote]
Instead of just accusing me of moving the goalposts, show me
where I have.
[quote]FOLLOWED by your apparent willingness to discuss an
issue, that by your own words, is rather fruitless to discuss
(i.e. the interaction). ::)[/quote]
It is not fruitless to discuss it, and in fact I welcome
discussion of it, since I am pretty sure that the more people
think about it, the more people will realize that the
interaction problem has no solution, and so take a look at the
alternative -- idealism. Of course they might also fall into the
error of materialism, in which case I would welcome discussion
of the hard problem of consciousness, which they can't solve.
[quote]Here's the deal, Ka. EVERYTHING about your outlook on
what you consider WHATEVER is impossible to argue against
BECAUSE you DO NOT REALLY BELIEVE (yeah - I know you'll claim
that about you is incorrect as well) WE are talking to each
other here.[/quote]
[size=10pt]Yup, incorrect. See below.
[quote]Sure, you can come up with all sorts of erudite labels
with "justification" for your claim that you believe we do have
sensory apparatus and that you do actually engage in debate with
other humans and recognize that we talk to each other, but it is
NOT SO, according to your concept of reality. [/quote]
My concept of reality is that there is nothingness
(no-thingness) AND there is thingness, and each depends on the
other, making them a unity. So it does not follow from my
concept of reality that there is no sensory apparatus, or other
humans, or biosphere.
[quote]
This then taints absolutely every subject on the issue (i.e.
cause and effect related) about integrating, analyzing and
taking appropriate action on, INFORMATION about the OUTSIDE
world that our sensory apparatus MUST have for us to remain as
viable homeostatic biological entities.
There is just NO WAY for you to look at your belief system and
seriously consider the possibility that you are a space cadet
living in a totally erroneous private world. The biosphere is
NOT accessible through a meditation chamber, and never will be,
IMHO. You have provided zero evidence that it is. [/quote]
?? What does meditation have to do with the existence of
anything?
[quote]
Furthermore, you may even claim that "looking for evidence" is
evidence ;) of an incorrect approach to "perceiving" the
biosphere or anything else. :laugh: [/quote]
The only (non)-thing for which one cannot look for evidence is
no-thingness. The biosphere is a thing, so there is no problem
perceiving it, or studying it scientifically.
[quote] It's kind of like saying that jumping out of a window of
a multistory building is not dangerous; it's the concrete that
kills you. And even that was a mere perception of smacking the
concrete.
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/ugly004.gif[/quote]
Ah, now here there is something to say. Yes, smacking the
concrete is just perceptions, very painful ones, resulting in
death, which is to say the scrunched up body is no longer able
to perceive physical reality (its sensory apparatus has been
destroyed). After which (I think) one perceives non-physical
reality, but I can't prove that. In any case, physical reality
continues to exist as long as there are people or bacteria
perceiving it. The problem I suspect you have with this is the
word "just" as in "just perceptions". My task, if we are to
actually debate this, is to show that saying that physical
reality is "just perceptions" does not detract an iota from
science, or how we should engage with physical reality, for
example, it remains the case that jumping out of high windows
results in death.
[quote]When I question your ability to perceive without
accepting the fact that perceiving IS a sensory EVENT that
INCLUDES integrating outside information, you DANCE by saying
the, uh, "interaction is not explained".[/quote]
As I said, I accept that perceiving is a sensory event, and have
no idea why you think I would think otherwise. And it does
integrate outside information, that is, information that was
outside my ego consciousness, and moves inside it. However, I
would also say that "inside" and "outside" are spatial
metaphors, and that space has no independent existence, that we
create space, time, and mass in the act of perceiving. And this,
of course, is where discussion gets tricky, and calls for
"hair-splitting", though I would call it precision. The moon
really exists, but only exists located in spacetime when it is
looked at.
[quote]I'll tell you what. When you agree that it is possible
that you are a space cadet and do not have a clue of what you
speak, then I will admit that SAME possibility is present in my
worldview as well. But until you, a separate and distinct entity
from me, are actually willing to GO THERE, you are fibbin' when
you claim you ARE willing to "go there" on the issue of
eXternalism. [/quote]
I agree that it is possible that I am wrong. There is no
certainty in metaphysics. All one can do is argue over what is
most plausible. But then I have never claimed otherwise, so I
really don't understand this talk about being unwilling to "go
there". After all, until I was 37 I was just as much an
externalist as you are now. So I've been there.
[quote]I challenge your claim that eXternalism is not related
to, or relevant to, this thread. It is. [/quote]
Of course it is highly relevant to this thread, which is why I
made my first post in this thread attacking externalism.
However, it is not relevant to the debate I had with RE over the
usage of 'ad hominem', which is all I claimed.
[quote]People who BELIEVE that there is ZERO meaning in anything
and everything they "do" OFTEN end up committing suicide (e.g.
Buddhists). THIS SENSELESS ACT is born of nihilism. ANYONE that
teaches others that there is NOTHING because there is NO THING
is nurturing a potential nihilist who may end up committing
suicide.[/quote]
Then I'm off the hook, because I definitely believe there are
things, such as you, me, and the biosphere, and that real people
are doing real harm to it. What I do not believe is that there
are any mindless things existing on their own.
[quote]DON'T hair split with me about the importance of MEANING
and PURPOSE in human lives. Your worldview EXCLUDES BOTH MEANING
AND PURPOSE. But of, course, you will claim that you never said
any of that or represent any of that. Well, I think you do. And
I think you should take responsibility for telling people there
is NOTHING to FEAR out there because there is NO THING, or even
an "out there". [/quote]
I am afraid of disease, poisonous critters, of losing my savings
to some bankster, etc. etc., since I consider viruses, critters,
and banksters to all be real. I also think that MEANING and
PURPOSE are names of God, and that things exist to express that
Meaning and fulfill divine Purpose.
You say I am moving goalposts. Show me where I have. Show me
where I have ever said or implied that "nothing is real" or
anything like that. Some Buddhists say that, but I am not one of
them.
[/quote]
Well, how can I show you that you have said it?
HTML http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6656.gif
The only
way, I suppose, which I am sure you will take issue with, is the
"spatial metaphors" term and the alleged conditional "existence"
of the moon (or any thing -atoms, molecules, people, etc.- else,
for that matter).
Ka said (smileys are sins of Agelbert - Ka is innocent![/I]):
[quote]I would also say that "inside" and "outside" are spatial
metaphors, and that space has no independent existence, that we
create space, time, and mass in the act of perceiving. And this,
of course, is where discussion gets tricky ;), and calls for
"hair-splitting" ;D, though I would call it
precision.
HTML http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif<br
/>The moon really exists, but only exists located in spacetime
when it is looked at.[/quote]
(emphasis mine
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)
I don't like to use labels, but aren't you a type of monist?
[quote]
Monism is the view that attributes oneness or singleness (Greek:
μόνος) to a concept (e.g., existence).
Substance monism is the philosophical view that a variety of
existing things can be explained in terms of a single reality or
substance.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism[/quote]
(emphasis mine ;D)
The issue of names for God is not something I ever associated
MEANING and PURPOSE with. I agree that God has a lot to do with
that in our lives, but I wasn't talking about God; I was talking
about humans. You know, like Maslow's hierarchy and things like
that. When you do that sort of subject classification
rearrangement, it appears to me that you just moved a goal post.
Can we stick to human meaning and purpose for a while? You are
the scholar, but I know a thing or two about language as well.
The word "vocation" is one I would associate with God as linked
to meaning and purpose in our lives simply because I believe
that we all have a mission. But that's at a level of mind far
beyond avoiding pain, breathing, getting enough to eat,
maintaining homeostasis, etc.
[quote]vo·ca·tion noun: vocation; plural noun: vocations
late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-),
from vocare ‘to call.’
a strong feeling of suitability for a particular career or
occupation.
"not all of us have a vocation to be nurses or doctors"
synonyms: calling, life's work, mission, purpose, function; More
profession, occupation, career, job, employment, trade, craft,
business, line, line of work, métier
"forestry is my vocation"
•a person's employment or main occupation, especially regarded
as particularly worthy and requiring great dedication.[/quote]
Back to the window jump to concrete splat experience, to you,
the concrete is only "there" because the jumper thought it would
be there PRIOR to jumping out of the window. If, for example,
the jumper firmly THOUGHT that a 12 ft deep swimming pool was
down there prior to jumping, he would just splash into the pool
and swim to the edge unharmed.
This "ability" you believe we conscious entiti(es ;)) possess
to sort of create our physical universe on the fly as a function
of perception ([i]which vanishes from existence just as quickly
with our Trump like "attention" to perception) is a bit
difficult to accept from the point of view of thermodynamics, if
nothing else is at issue (although there certainly ARE a lot of
other controversial considerations to be explained).
Once I had appendicitis. I didn't know I had it. I just knew I
had an upset stomach after eating at around 6:00 PM, which
turned into a stomach ache that would not go away, but was not
localized on my right side near the appendix. I went to the ER
at around 9:00 PM. The doctor diagnosed my ache as gastritis and
prescribed some shots I could give myself in the thigh (two
shots).
Now why did he make that mistake? BECAUSE of the power of
suggestion of my mind (at least partly - the doctor that
operated on me later on told me it's real hard to diagnose
appendicitis when the pain isn't localized, and even then they
can only confirm SOMETHING is wrong in one or more of your
organs because of the high white blood cell count).
You see, when I arrived at the ER with that gut pain, the young
doctor, after examining a 24 year old healthy male with a
stomach ache, gave me a shot of something. The pain in my
stomach vanished like it had never been there. This convinced
the doctor that his gastritis initial diagnosis was correct, so
no blood tests were ordered and I was sent home.
I got up at midnight with renewed pain in my stomach. I gave
myself the shot. Within an hour it was worse. I gave myself the
second shot. By two AM, I am pounding on the headboard to avoid
dealing with the severe stomach pain and cramping.
WHY? Because I was poor, newly married, had been fired from an
air taxi for organizing a union, was out of a job, and living in
my parent's house. I DID NOT WANT to rack up some hospital
expenses, comprende, amigo?
BUT, I had GREAT FAITH in doctors. But that "faith" didn't last
too long as the organs did a duty dance in there. I finally went
back to the hospital at around 4:00 AM and, within another 12
hours, and a LOT of pain, I had my appendix, which had ruptured,
making it life threatening peritonitis, removed.
The doctor that operated on me later explained that some people,
like me, never get a pain in their SIDE that helps doctors
diagnose appendicitis. Gastritis is more common so that's the
way young doctors frequently go when faced with patients like
me. The shots for gastritis actually exacerbate the swelling of
the infected appendix. :P
As the appendix swells, the other organs begin to swell as a
defense mechanism. After the appendix ruptures, the other organs
quickly sense this and try to limit the damage from toxins that
will certainly damage them (and kill you) from septic
conditions.
These other organs isolate the appendix as best they can by
expanding through inflammation. It works for a while. THAT is
when the pain becomes localized on your side. But if you are not
operated on within a certain time period, the toxins and
bacteria from the ruptured appendix attack the walls of the
organs pushing against the appendix and THEY get severely
infected too. Then the patient dies.
So, you can see why I have some issues with believing that my
(allegedly instant matter creating thought processes) had BEANS
to do with anything but making a situation WORSE BECAUSE of the
power of my mind to incorrectly, but due to my faith in doctors,
believe the doctor who diagnosed me with gastritis and gave me
a shot had fixed everything.
From the "perception is creation of cause and effect on the fly"
view you claim is logical and reasonable, it makes no sense
whatsoever. Ka, I was NOT in the conscious sensory loop.
Everything that happened in my appendix and surrounding organs
was an involuntary response that I knew nothing about until the
doctor explained it to me AFTER THE FACT. It all happened,
regardless of what I THOUGHT and the events were totally adverse
to my perceived economic needs at the time.
You believe our minds are a creative force, with few limits. I
am convinced that our bodies and minds are, in the scientific
sense of the word, "irritable". That is a term, in this case,
NOT related to "being in a bad mood or feeling bothered", as it
is commonly used in the vernacular. I am referring to the
ability to sense defined as "irritability". I learned that term
in a mainframe computer class. The Sperry Univac missile tracker
converted to an air traffic tracker was "irritable" because it
had sensory response connections (IO - input output) from radar
sites through PAMS (peripheral adapter modules).
My organs operate on a level that my thought processes rarely
sense, yet they DO have a purpose and a meaning to their
primitive but absolutely vital functions within me. I cannot
accept your claim that, somehow, these irritability based cause
and effect processes do not exist when I do not have them in my
perception.
We have argued this stuff before. You have said, if I remember
correctly, that my constructed universe is real for me so, even
if I "created" all that cause and effect AFTER it happened,
that's okay too because thought is not "limited" by time.
I disagree. And it is you that needs to do a bit of convincing
here that you aren't making a circular argument. Think about it,
Ka. Nobody can pin you down to flawed logic because your cause
and effect creative horizons aren't even limited by time!
Now IF you accept that ignorance of a form of cause and effect
such as my appendicitis/peritonitis on my part is inexplicable
from the monist point of view, I would consider that a rational
position. But that is "rational" from your point of view, ONLY
if our creative modus operandi[/I] is time limited. But that
would mean that reality exists independent of thought
perceptions. And that is why I believe the "unlimited time for
creative tought cause and effect" thing is [i]sine qua non to
your belief system. :(
Now, if you say you agree that our instant creative processes
ARE time limited, as you imply when you say the moon no longer
exists right after you stop thinking about the moon, then you
should NOT keep denying, what I believe is a corollary, i.e.
that, if I am in a space ship, I won't hit the moon, even if I'm
flying at it in ignorance, because I don't THINK it's there. :P
Sorry Ka, it's THERE, whether I am thinking about it or not.
My appendix ruptured when it was the very last thing I wanted or
was thinking about because the poison was THERE.
#Post#: 7426--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: July 3, 2017, 1:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=9711.msg134153#msg134153
date=1499085934]
OK! Day 2 of the July 4th Weekend Stealth Van Testing now done!
[img
width=30]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185701.png[/img]
I got up early (for me) this morning around 9AM with quite a few
projects to accomplish. Although a good deal more organized
than when I took off on the Adventure, SaVannah was still not up
to snuff to have such a small space well enough organized to
move around. This became clear early in the morning when I
first woke up and because of all the clutter from the campsite I
threw back into her for the night, I couldn't move around easily
to get myself dressed for the day. So on the list for more
stuff to buy went a couple of more organizing containers/plastic
drawers.
By early morning also it was pretty cold, around 50F (10C).
While I was toasty warm in my sleeping bag, once out of it and
trying to get dressed (which takes me quite a while), it was
rather chilly. I had to fire up the engine and get the Van
heating system going, running the engine for around 20 minutes.
So tonight I am implementing the first of my several levels of
Heating Plans. I am utilizing a kerosene lamp as a heater
overnight. This is straight out of the Van Dweller Handbook.
[center][img
width=640]
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-030717160020.jpeg[/img][/center]
When I fired up the lamp around 8PM, temps were still a
comfortable 63F both inside and outside SaVannah. As the night
approached around 11PM, outside temps had dropped to around 55F,
while the interior of SaVannah was up to 65F, a full 10F of
gradient there on one kero lamp! I think 1 lamp runnig
overnight will work at these temps. Going down to 40F, I might
have to run 2 or 3 lamps. Because the volume of the space is so
small, you get a lot of bang for your buck on heating this way.
Kero lamps burn miniscule amounts of kero, a Liter will last at
least a week. I'll report tomorrow on where the temps were at
when I wake up. For still colder temps, I can run more of these
lanterns. 2 more should take me down to close to freezing I
think. After that, it may be necessary to fire up the Catalytic
Kero Heater which pops out a whopping 8000 BTUs. That should
warm up the cabin in minutes, I doubt I would have to run it
continuously unless outside temps were in the Slope territory of
-30F and below, and I NEVER expect to be in that situation.
The most important additional prep to buy today was a NEW
LAPTOP! [img
width=30]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185701.png[/img]<br
/>The one I am currently using is just beat to ****, I am lucky
I
even got the mother fucker to work! That's why I bought the new
Dell All-in-One as my primary computer at home in the digs. So
all of this essential **** required a drive back to
"civilization" at Walmart, and since my digs are on the way
there I cheated and made a stop off there in mid afternoon. ;D
That's when I wrote my fairly long post on the HOA topic.
[smg id=3920 type=preview align=center caption="Boondocks New
Laptop"]
My intention was to get the new laptop set up tonight at the
campsite, but I decided against that and will wait until the
trip is finished on the 4th and do it at home. The batt
probably needs a good charge, and it is steadily raining which
while I was protected by the Big Brolly does not give me much
room to move around. Besides, setting up a new compute and
downloading all your favorite software takes hours, and I would
have to do that over my Wireless 4G connection and burn up the
limited bandwidth. So tonight I am suffering again on the old
laptop with its keyboard idiosyncracies which makes keyboarding
out this post twice as long as it should take. The new laptop
should be ready for the next Adventure down to the Kenai
Peninsula for another Property Search as well as shooting pics
of the Dip Netting melee. lol.
While all this stuff might seem simple to you healthy folks out
there, for me it is thoroughly exhausting. Every trip of 50
feet between me and SaVannah makes my legs ache, and I have to
sit down and rest them all the time. Simple tasks like
disposing of packaging materials requires a new round trip to
SaVannah, to be dropped into another garbage bag and dropped
into a dumpster for itd finsl trip to the Land of Away. It's
also getting ever more difficult yo get into and out of her to
access everything. Nevertheless, I soldier onward. ::)
RE
[/quote]
[quote author=Surly1 link=topic=9711.msg134164#msg134164
date=1499104452]
[quote author=RE link=topic=9711.msg134163#msg134163
date=1499099342]
On awakening this morning, SaVannah was still at a comfortable
61F with exterior temps around 51. One kero lantern running
works to put out enough heat overnight to make a 9F gradient,
adding in of course your body heat escaping from the sleeping
bag. I will install more permanent Hooks for lanterns and run
up to four of them on cold nights. This should cover me down
into the 30sF, possibly 20s. Colder than that, I go to the
Catalytic Kero Heater.
[/quote]
Maybe I missed this, but are you accounting for CO buildup?
I read in an earlier installment about the fan system you hooked
up, but that was for cooling. Just wondering about ventilation
with all those kero appliences.
Let's not do The Big Sleep too early.
[/quote]
[img width=25
height=30]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-080515182559.png[/img]
<br
/>[img width=25
height=30]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-080515182559.png[/img]
<br
/>[img width=25
height=30]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-080515182559.png[/img]
About 20 years ago, when I still smoked, I participated in a
smoking study at UVM. They would measure the amount of carbon
monoxide in my lungs at intervals. When I would walk in, they
would check the level before starting the test. Normally it was
next to zip. But one day it was off the charts. I was also
feeling rather groggy that day after sleeping rather heavily the
night before.
The researcher's eye brows went up and he asked me if I had been
chain smoking just before arriving. I hadn't. But I had woken
up really groggy with a bit of a scare. I was renting a tiny
efficiency apartment in Burlington at the time and my wife was
not with me there yet. I had lit one of those incense candles
that are in large square glass containers and placed it on the
floor. When I awoke in the morning, the rug was partially
scorched. Luckily, the place had not caught fire, because the CO
(not just the CO2 - you ALWAYS get some incomplete combustion
when burning hydrocarbons) from that candle had knocked me out
just enough to keep me asleep but not quite enough to kill me,
unless there was a fire.
I never lit one of those incense candles again. :-[ We live,
and we learn.
#Post#: 7431--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: July 3, 2017, 8:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=9711.msg134174#msg134174
date=1499118623]
[quote author=Surly1 link=topic=9711.msg134164#msg134164
date=1499104452]
[quote author=RE link=topic=9711.msg134163#msg134163
date=1499099342]
On awakening this morning, SaVannah was still at a comfortable
61F with exterior temps around 51. One kero lantern running
works to put out enough heat overnight to make a 9F gradient,
adding in of course your body heat escaping from the sleeping
bag. I will install more permanent Hooks for lanterns and run
up to four of them on cold nights. This should cover me down
into the 30sF, possibly 20s. Colder than that, I go to the
Catalytic Kero Heater.
[/quote]
Maybe I missed this, but are you accounting for CO buildup?
I read in an earlier installment about the fan system you hooked
up, but that was for cooling. Just wondering about ventilation
with all those kero appliences.
Let's not do The Big Sleep too early.
[/quote]
The Van leaks too much air for CO to build up, especially
running just one kero lamp. CO only forms if there isn't enough
O[sub]2[/sub] around for the combustion to be complete and form
CO[sub]2[/sub]. Maybe if I was running all 4 it might be an
issue, but I doubt it. The kero catalytic heater is indoor safe
and has a CO detector and automatic shut-off. If that doesn't
shut itself down, then 4 kero lamps definitely won't be
producing CO in any great magnitude. The heater puts out 8000
BTU. A kero lamp? Maybe 500 BTU.
I may buy a separate CO detector though just to get some numbers
on this.
RE
[/quote]
I think that would be prudent. Your assumption that high oxygen
availability guarantees complete combustion in a kerosene lamp
is erroneous. I won't argue with you about how much oxygen is
available. I'm sure you are okay in that regard.
Of course there is a gradient involved in the percentage of
combustion products when the oxygen supply varies.
Of course a van is not as tight as a building, so CO poisoning
is less likely. BUT you DO turn on the engine every now and then
when it is parked and a MASSIVE amount of CO comes out of that
tail pipe and hangs around the van.
I had no tail pipe in my efficiency apartment and plenty of
oxygen but I still almost bought the farm. My apartment was, of
course, well insulated, unlike your van, which compounded my
problem and lessens yours, but I didn't have a tail pipe a few
feet away.
So if you think that lamp of yours isn't putting out CO, talk to
me again when you have bought the monitor.
[quote]500 ppm Often produced in garage when a cold car is
started in an open garage and warmed-up for 2 minutes. (Greiner,
unpublished, 1997).
[color=maroon]800 ppm Dizziness, nausea and convulsions within
45 minutes. Unconsciousness within 2 hours. Death within 2-3
hours. Maximum air-free concentration from gas kitchen ranges
(ANSI).
1600 ppm Headache, dizziness and nausea within 20 minutes. Death
within 1 hour. Smoldering wood fires, malfunctioning furnaces,
water heaters, and kitchen ranges typically produce
concentrations exceeding 1,600 ppm.
3200 ppm Concentration inside charcoal grill (Greiner, single
example). Headache, dizziness and nausea within 5-20 minutes.
Quickly impaired thinking. [size=12pt]Death within 30 minutes.
6400 ppm Headache, dizziness and nausea within 1-2 minutes.
Thinking impaired before response possible. Death within 10-15
minutes.
12,800 ppm Death within 1-3 minutes.
[img
width=200]
HTML http://www.coolassparts.com/images/exhaust.jpg[/img]
35,000 ppm Measured tailpipe exhaust concentration from warm
carbureted gasoline engines without catalytic converters.
(Greiner, unpublished field study, January 1997)[/size][/quote]
Many years ago I used kerosene lamps under banana plants to get
them to flower quicker. It's a long story but there was PLENTY
of oxygen in my back yard and i STILL was getting products of
incomplete combustion. Kerosene is called that because there
are several different groups of long chained hydrocarbons in the
mix. Some, as you know, burn faster than others...
[quote] Regardless of crude oil source or processing history,
kerosene's major components are branched and straight chain
alkanes and naphthenes (cycloalkanes), which normally account
for at least 70% by volume. Aromatic hydrocarbons in this
boiling range, such as alkylbenzenes (single ring) and
alkylnaphthalenes (double ring), do not normally exceed 25% by
volume of kerosene streams. Olefins are usually not present at
more than 5% by volume.[10][/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene
In my yard I was goosing my plants with ethylene, the ripening
hormone, but I knew there was some CO, CO2 and H2O coming out of
that kerosene witches brew.
#Post#: 7434--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: July 4, 2017, 1:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]OK, I'll pick up a CO monitor to get some numbers on
this. I am quite sure it is not a problem though, since Van
Dweller is still alive after 50 years living this way.
RE[/quote]
[img width=40
height=40]
HTML http://www.clker.com/cliparts/c/8/f/8/11949865511933397169thumbs_up_nathan_eady_01.svg.hi.png[/img]<br
/>[img
width=40]
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-020617175335.png[/img]
Just remember that in all those examples of CO concentration I
quoted, the oxygen concentration was around normal atmosphere
(about 21 to 23% if you aren't next to a refinery or in a
traffic jam, of course ;D). So, even with 210,000 PPM of
Oxygen, a mere 1,600 PPM of of CO from a kitchen stove can waste
you in about an hour.
#Post#: 7617--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: August 3, 2017, 1:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Agelbert NOTE: RE lives in Alaska. He is writing to Palloy, who
lives in a tropical jungle (populated by, among many different
species, some interesting small mammal eating pythons). :o :P
[quote author=RE link=topic=69.msg136232#msg136232
date=1501762824]
I went outside to smoke a Cancerette, and has been the case for
the last few months on many days, it was raining. Not hard
rain, just a steady drizzle.
We had a summer here a few years ago like this, but the recent
ones have been much more dry and sunny. Generally speaking,
such a summer is a good thing here, because the dry summers
result in lots of Wildfires. Wet summers reduce this danger.
Fire danger signs at all the parks now are at the BOTTOM level
of LOW. Nothing is likely to burn here at the moment, you would
have to pour a **** load of kero on some piece of wood to get
that one started.
As long as you have some shelter, a steady drizzle is not a real
big issue. On my porch, I have the shelter of the porch above
me. When in SaVANnah, I have the Big Brolly right now as well
as an Awning for the Side door, although I have not tested that
one out yet. I also am working on the Geodesic Gazebo as a
further addition. Driving rain with a lot of wind attached to
it is a bigger problem of course, but we don't get much of that
here. For that **** you basically gotta just hole up in the Van
unless you do up a full blown dome, which I probably will not
do.
Overall, having steady rainfall in your neighborhood is a GOOD
thing, although it can be annoying as far as going out and
enjoying nature is concerned. The water feeds the crops and
keeps the aquifer filled. Too much of it and too much humidity
as is the case in many Tropical Rainforest locations can of
course be a problem also. You get problems with Mold of course
with too much dampness around all the time. For me also, I just
can't stand being Sweaty all the time, which you always are when
it is hot & humid. I prefer a climate with about a 60-70F
average temp and about 20% humidity. The climate here in the
Matanuska-Susitna River Valley hits this target most of the time
through the summer, although this one has been rainier than
usual.
I just can't grasp why some people would choose to live in HOT &
HUMID climates like the Tropical Rainforest, with lots of
PYTHONS slinking about who want to make a meal out of your
Kitty, This makes no CFS to me. ???
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191404.bmp
RE
[/quote]
I feel the same way. Having lived several years in the tropics,
I got tired of feeling like a wet sponge most of the time.
That's why I live in Vermont. The routine relative humidity here
is between 40 and 60% in the summer (much less in the winter).
That is comfortable climate to me. [img width=25
height=30]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-080515182559.png[/img]
#Post#: 7624--------------------------------------------------
Re: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unus
ual Experiences
By: AGelbert Date: August 3, 2017, 6:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Agelbert NOTE: Azozeo lives in Arizona.
[quote author=azozeo link=topic=69.msg136261#msg136261
date=1501798338]
[quote author=azozeo link=topic=69.msg136260#msg136260
date=1501797879]
[quote author=RE link=topic=69.msg136245#msg136245
date=1501785739]
I merely stated my opinion that you can't live with predators on
your property.
RE
[/quote]
I do....
[/quote]
There's a coon tail diamond back rattler that sets up shop by
the water dish outside
around sunset waiting for field mice to come out after sunset.
His name is Dillinger....
Kathy had to dispose of a tarantula last week. Bottled him up in
a mason jar, took him up to the end of the street & set him free
in the desert. Damn thing walked back down the street & was on
the garage door the next night.
I picked up a baby scorpion of the rug in my room & gave him the
tidy bowl challenge.
RE, It comes with the territory.
I'm surprised you don't get bears or moose wandering into town.
There all a bunch of moochs.
One of my friends showed me a vid he took of a whole herd of elk
in his back yard eating the bread scraps set out for the birds.
Papa elk was a 12 pointer & he had six bitches with him. mmm mm
mmmmmmm .....
[/quote]
Fascinating. [img
width=50]
HTML http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/xig/ojx/xigojx6KT.png[/img]<br
/>I read somewhere that some people have trained Tarantulas to e
at
out of their hand. It seems they are smarter than they look. ;D
I'll skip that experience, thank you very much.
As to what critters out there will eat, well, just about
anything edible. I recently saw pictures (not photoshopped) of a
deer with a strange looking "twig "in it's mouth. It was a human
rib, as the human skeletal remains on the ground makes clear.
The caption was "I didn't kill him. Please do not shoot".
HTML http://www.pic4ever.com/images/4fvfcja.gif
So it seems that herbivores will eat bones and meat, which
probably does not do them any good at all. So if we get an
epidemic of mad deer disease, you will know why. :P
Photo without the gag caption:
[center][img
width=640]
HTML http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-030817192249.jpeg[/img][/center]
[center]Its attention caught, a deer found eating a human corpse
looks up, a rib dangling from its mouth.
Photograph courtesy Lauren A. Meckel/Academia [/center]
SNIPPET:
By Delaney Chambers
PUBLISHED May 7, 2017
In an unprecedented finding, researchers spotted a deer chewing
on a human rib during a study aimed at examining how human
remains decompose in the wild.
Scavengers take advantage of opportunities to eat, and carcasses
left in the wild often decay quickly because animals can make
quick work of the remains–even human remains.
Known as “body farms,” some research facilities study how human
remains decompose in the open air, including which animals
interact with the corpse.
Foxes, turkey vultures, raccoons, and other scavengers are
commonly seen helping themselves to decomposing bodies.
Researchers at the Forensic Anthropology Research Facility in
San Marcos, Texas, set up a camera to see whether any other
scavengers would stop by–and they were not disappointed.
Body Farm: It's a field filled with rotting corpses :P. But no
one is burying these bodies just yet.
In a study published this week in the Journal of Forensic
Sciences, researchers highlighted their finding: Ungulates, too,
will partake in human flesh, if it’s available.
White-tailed deer are considered herbivores and subsist on a
diet of readily available plants, including twigs, fruits, nuts,
alfalfa, and the occasional fungi. (Read more about the
white-tailed deer.)
This is the first time scientists have observed deer eating
human flesh, though they have been known to turn carnivorous in
the past, eating fish, dead rabbits, and even live birds.
Deer may pursue flesh because they lack minerals like
phosphorous, salt, and calcium, especially in the winter months
when plant life is scarce.
Full article with more mouth watering pictures: [img
width=100]
HTML http://www.netanimations.net/Frankenstein-looks-stares-and-blinks-animated-gif.gif[/img][img<br
/>width=50]
HTML http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-070814193155.png[/img]
HTML http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/05/deer-eating-human-forensics-decomposition/
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